2018/2019 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Kind of curious why you say Stone no but Nylander yes.

Nylander is 4 years younger and puts up the same points.

His defensive game isnt at Stones level but he is still young.

Check out the number of games they each played. Similar points (Stone slightly ahead) but Stone only played 58 games to Nylander's 82. Stone was over a PPG.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

It happened last year with this same team trading like 5 pieces for duchene in a 3-way, and looks like it will happen with this team when they trade Karlsson. The flames did it with phaneuf. It does happen, and I would even say it's likely it happens more often than 1-1 deals.

To address your first point, adding a singer like stone to our top 6 enhances our depth without subtracting much of note from the nhl roster. Jankowski looks to have been displaced at centre already. Rasmus is a good prospect but you have to give to get.

Phaneuf was dealt in a seven player deal, where the Flames took on an extra contract, maintaining their contract limit. The Flame send Phaneuf, Sjostrom, and Audie (3 pieces) to the Leafs for Stajan, Hagman, Mayers, and White (4 pieces. That was a net gain of one contract.

What a near sighted perspective you have. Jankowski has been pushed out of the lineup? By who? Let me guess, Ryan? A player on a three year contract? You need to be looking a lot longer term. Jankowski is a pretty important piece to this team going forward. A big center that is a four or five tool player, and likely const controlled. You don’t give those away, not when the player scores 17 goals in his rookie campaign with very limited minutes and poor line mates. You don’t give players away like that. Same with Rasmussen Andersson. Another young player that can step in and push a Micheal Stone out of the lineup and save you $2.7M in cap space, and be a cost control for the next three to five years, countering Tkachuk’s salary.

But let’s play your game. Let’s say the Flames decide to trade away Jankowski, Andersson, and our 1st in 2019 for Mark Stone (Ottawa isn’t taking Brouwer and he isn’t waiving his NTC to go there). How is that going to look? Well, for starters, the salary structure is going to swell by at least $6M. You have to pay Stone, which isn’t going to be cheap. Worse, your cost controls were traded to bring in another big ticket player. So now you have $30M+ invested in Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal, Backlund, and Stone, with Lindholm to be negotiated. Then you add in $15M+ for Giordano, Brodie and Hamonic, with Hanafin to sign this season. So between those two RFAs, you have probably another $10-11M in salary to add. So were’re at $55M, and we haven’t included Brouwer, Frolik, Ryan, Smith and Stone to the mix. That’s almost $20M, which puts us in cap limit rage.

Now comes the bad news. You have to fill out 8 roster spots with around $3M. Now you have to bring in the dregs of the league to fill out your roster, because you’ve moved your best cost control players out in a deal. I guess the solution is to rush your prospects in and hope they make the jump from junior, but that isn’t the best player development, and if it fails is more costly in the long run. Worse, because if a,, the picks moved out, we have a major hole in the system to use to back fill those slots with quality players.

Now here’s the real kicker. Because of the moves made, you’ve locked your roster in because of the salary structure you’ve built. Next season, you have Bennett and Tkachuk both up for new contracts, and no significant money coming off the roster. Now what? You weren’t thinking long term and we’re only concerned about that shiny new toy, and now you’re screwed. Now what do you do? Now you have to move out pieces for a deminished return because other teams are not going to help you move your mistakes for fair market value. Now you have some really tough decisions to be made, and not because of what has happened on the ice. Just poor asset management.

Bad suggestions are bad suggestions.

[dino7c]

It was certainly easier to put up points in TO last season than in Calgary

Janko did well all things considered...it can't just be about points

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I don't know why but I still think the Flames go after Stone

I also don’t know why. It seems pretty clear to me that the Flames are essentially done, save for some roster trimming.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Kind of curious why you say Stone no but Nylander yes.

Nylander is 4 years younger and puts up the same points.

His defensive game isnt at Stones level but he is still young.

Defensive game is a big reason, from watching them I feel like there's a big gap between the two.

But also opportunity. They have similar stats, but their situations were very different all year. I think Stone with linemates like Matthews and Hyman would have eclipsed what Nylander did with the same opportunity.

I think Nylander is great, and hope we see some of that from Jankowski soon - but I think Stone is a tier above.

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by dino7c

It was certainly easier to put up points in TO last season than in Calgary

Janko did well all things considered...it can't just be about points

Pens teams seem to always put up a lot of.points too. I guess their players arent that good, their team just puts up.lots of.points for some reason.

Dont see why if a team puts up lots of points that some how is a handicap to the players on that team.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

Phaneuf was dealt in a seven player deal, where the Flames took on an extra contract, maintaining their contract limit. The Flame send Phaneuf, Sjostrom, and Audie (3 pieces) to the Leafs for Stajan, Hagman, Mayers, and White (4 pieces. That was a net gain of one contract.

What a near sighted perspective you have. Jankowski has been pushed out of the lineup? By who? Let me guess, Ryan? A player on a three year contract? You need to be looking a lot longer term. Jankowski is a pretty important piece to this team going forward. A big center that is a four or five tool player, and likely const controlled. You don’t give those away, not when the player scores 17 goals in his rookie campaign with very limited minutes and poor line mates. You don’t give players away like that. Same with Rasmussen Andersson. Another young player that can step in and push a Micheal Stone out of the lineup and save you $2.7M in cap space, and be a cost control for the next three to five years, countering Tkachuk’s salary.

But let’s play your game. Let’s say the Flames decide to trade away Jankowski, Andersson, and our 1st in 2019 for Mark Stone (Ottawa isn’t taking Brouwer and he isn’t waiving his NTC to go there). How is that going to look? Well, for starters, the salary structure is going to swell by at least $6M. You have to pay Stone, which isn’t going to be cheap. Worse, your cost controls were traded to bring in another big ticket player. So now you have $30M+ invested in Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal, Backlund, and Stone, with Lindholm to be negotiated. Then you add in $15M+ for Giordano, Brodie and Hamonic, with Hanafin to sign this season. So between those two RFAs, you have probably another $10-11M in salary to add. So were’re at $55M, and we haven’t included Brouwer, Frolik, Ryan, Smith and Stone to the mix. That’s almost $20M, which puts us in cap limit rage.

Now comes the bad news. You have to fill out 8 roster spots with around $3M. Now you have to bring in the dregs of the league to fill out your roster, because you’ve moved your best cost control players out in a deal. I guess the solution is to rush your prospects in and hope they make the jump from junior, but that isn’t the best player development, and if it fails is more costly in the long run. Worse, because if a,, the picks moved out, we have a major hole in the system to use to back fill those slots with quality players.

Now here’s the real kicker. Because of the moves made, you’ve locked your roster in because of the salary structure you’ve built. Next season, you have Bennett and Tkachuk both up for new contracts, and no significant money coming off the roster. Now what? You weren’t thinking long term and we’re only concerned about that shiny new toy, and now you’re screwed. Now what do you do? Now you have to move out pieces for a deminished return because other teams are not going to help you move your mistakes for fair market value. Now you have some really tough decisions to be made, and not because of what has happened on the ice. Just poor asset management.

Bad suggestions are bad suggestions.

It's funny because in the cap management part you completely negated the aspects of the trade I promoted (dumping brouwer and brodie, clearing salary for stone) a long with the ancillary trade of getting rid of frolik in favor of signing stone as an rfa or something (which I said was a bad idea for those exact reasons.) My plan should leave enough room for a major upgrade to tkachuks contract. It might make Bennett more difficult to sign, but only if he actually starts developing this season. If he does it will be a very good problem (it's easier to keep people when you're winning)

Jankowski and Anderson are good players, but you have to trade good to get good. Stone would have a larger impact on our roster than both combined. We dont lose any depth and actually make room for mangiapane to grow and perform. Czarnik too. It would leave our d a bit thinner but hanifin, valimaki, kulak, and harmonic are all still young so shouldn't need to be replaced too soon.

[Toonage]

I wonder if the Flames still don't try to fit Patrick Maroon in. They were leading the charge to get him, pivoted and landed Neal, and now its been complete silence so far as that player goes. Maybe a handshake agreement in place while they make some changes to fit him in? Who knows. Just seems a little too quiet there.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by dino7c

It was certainly easier to put up points in TO last season than in Calgary

Janko did well all things considered...it can't just be about points

So we're choosing to believe that it's more likely that a set of circumstances led to nylander getting more points than jankowski last season, when nylander has dramatically outperformed jankowski st every level and is younger? I just dont buy it. We gave jankowski the chance to drive his own line last year and it was a huge weak point on the team. Bennett didn't help much but still. The opportunity was there and went unseized.

[Monahammer]

The flames roster looks pretty good as is, but statistical models and the eye test still has them as a low seed playoff team. We could surprise in the playoffs but why rely on that. Stone would jack up the top 6 to competitor levels, and that's what Brad should be shooting for.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

It's funny because in the cap management part you completely negated the aspects of the trade I promoted (dumping brouwer and brodie, clearing salary for stone) a long with the ancillary trade of getting rid of frolik in favor of signing stone as an rfa or something (which I said was a bad idea for those exact reasons.) My plan should leave enough room for a major upgrade to tkachuks contract. It might make Bennett more difficult to sign, but only if he actually starts developing this season. If he does it will be a very good problem (it's easier to keep people when you're winning)

Your plan is extremely short sighted. So now you say you’re moving Brodie as well, and some how getting Brouwer to waive his NTC to go to a tire fire in Ottawa. Brouwer isn’t going to waive to go to Ottawa. So take that out of your deal. But since you’ve included Brodie, now the blue line is down a player on top pair, that you now have to replace. So you’ve taken out a player from our top pair, along with the defenseman best situated to step into the NHL to back fill any loss on the blueline, and this is a good thing?

This time last year our defensive prospect depth was Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington, Fox and Hickey, which was a ridiculous collection of young talent. After the previous moves made, and then your suggestion, our defensive prospect depth is down to Valimaki and Kylington, and one of them being forced into the lineup because the Flames can’t afford to bring in a replacement!

Jankowski and Anderson are good players, but you have to trade good to get good. Stone would have a larger impact on our roster than both combined. We dont lose any depth and actually make room for mangiapane to grow and perform. Czarnik too. It would leave our d a bit thinner but hanifin, valimaki, kulak, and harmonic are all still young so shouldn't need to be replaced too soon.

There is more to hockey than scoring points. You need depth to compete and you need it at all positions. What you are doing is making a four/five for one deal that hurts the Flames depth at multiple positions. I wish people would get realistic about the Czarnik thing. He’s a 26 year old who didn’t score a goal last season and has five to his NHL career. The odds are grossly stacked against him. Add in his size issue, and the Flames are going to have to pick and choose their spots where they can use the guy. Mangiapane is also small, which is a strike against him. Like it or not, you need size to survive in the NHL. You can’t win with a team full of players sub-six foot and under 200 pounds. Your trade suggestion weakens the team more than it helps it, and in very big ways.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Pens teams seem to always put up a lot of.points too. I guess their players arent that good, their team just puts up.lots of.points for some reason.

Dont see why if a team puts up lots of points that some how is a handicap to the players on that team.

Style of play, line mates, opportunity

can't just compare points is all I am saying

Nylander had 41 assists...I highly doubt he gets that in Calgary playing with guys who couldn't put the puck in the net if their lives depended on it

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

Your plan is extremely short sighted. So now you say you’re moving Brodie as well, and some how getting Brouwer to waive his NTC to go to a tire fire in Ottawa. Brouwer isn’t going to waive to go to Ottawa. So take that out of your deal. But since you’ve included Brodie, now the blue line is down a player on top pair, that you now have to replace. So you’ve taken out a player from our top pair, along with the defenseman best situated to step into the NHL to back fill any loss on the blueline, and this is a good thing?

This time last year our defensive prospect depth was Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington, Fox and Hickey, which was a ridiculous collection of young talent. After the previous moves made, and then your suggestion, our defensive prospect depth is down to Valimaki and Kylington, and one of them being forced into the lineup because the Flames can’t afford to bring in a replacement!



There is more to hockey than scoring points. You need depth to compete and you need it at all positions. What you are doing is making a four/five for one deal that hurts the Flames depth at multiple positions. I wish people would get realistic about the Czarnik thing. He’s a 26 year old who didn’t score a goal last season and has five to his NHL career. The odds are grossly stacked against him. Add in his size issue, and the Flames are going to have to pick and choose their spots where they can use the guy. Mangiapane is also small, which is a strike against him. Like it or not, you need size to survive in the NHL. You can’t win with a team full of players sub-six foot and under 200 pounds. Your trade suggestion weakens the team more than it helps it, and in very big ways.

Frankly I dont think I offered enough for stone so its not anyways.
But, if you think that:
Gaudreau-monahan-stone
Tkachuk-lindholm-neal
Bennett-backlund-ryan
Mangiapane-lazar-czarnik
With mostly all being under team control for medium to long term is weaker than our current roster, then we should just end this discussion.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

So we're choosing to believe that it's more likely that a set of circumstances led to nylander getting more points than jankowski last season, when nylander has dramatically outperformed jankowski st every level and is younger? I just dont buy it. We gave jankowski the chance to drive his own line last year and it was a huge weak point on the team. Bennett didn't help much but still. The opportunity was there and went unseized.

The best I can remember is Bennett-Jankowski-Hathaway which clicked for a bit, but I don't think ColdSam and HotHathaway should have been viewed as his chance. Especially if we're comparing them to Matthews and Hyman.

That Nylander dramatically outperforming Jankowski at every level is questionable. There's a lot more pages to write for each player, but Jankowski is still in the prologue IMO.

Jankowski:
2015-16 - Providence College GP: 38 G: 15 A: 25 P: 40
2016-17 - Stockton Heat GP: 64 G: 27 A: 29 P: 56
2017-18 - Calgary Flames GP: 72 G: 17 A: 8 P: 25

Nylander
2013-14 Sodertalje SK GP: 17 G: 11 A: 8 P: 19
2014-15 MODO GP: 21 G: 8 A: 12 P: 20
2014-15 Toronto Marlies GP: 37 G: 14 A: 18 P: 32
2015-16 Toronto Marlies GP: 38 G: 18 A: 27 P: 45
2016-17 Toronto Maple Leafs GP: 81 G: 22 A: 39 P: 61
2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs GP: 82 G: 20 A: 41 P: 61

There's no question that in the NHL Nylander has produced far more, but looking at their notable seasons I'm not reading the same story as you are.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I thought about stone more last night. Signing him in fa next year is a nice idea, but I just dont see how we can make it work without shipping some pieces out, which is why I think trade is still the best option.

Jankowski/bennett+r.andersson/kylington+2019 1st+ brouwer
That should be on the right track for a stone base, with brouwer as a salary dump heading back. If we could include brodie instead of a prospect d even better imo. Sens get two young and relatively nice pieces to build off of, we augment our top 6 substantially. Flip frolik to another team for whatever you can get and between he and brouwer that gives us ~8.5 extra cap space to keep stone (and more importantly tkachuk) signed long term

You're missing something. Ottawa isn't getting fair value for some of the players they are trading lately. Your offer doesn't reflect that.

[Monahammer]

Big difference is that janko was 20 for the 2015-16 and playing in college while nylander was 18 and playing in a men's league.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Split98

The best I can remember is Bennett-Jankowski-Hathaway which clicked for a bit, but I don't think ColdSam and HotHathaway should have been viewed as his chance. Especially if we're comparing them to Matthews and Hyman.

That Nylander dramatically outperforming Jankowski at every level is questionable. There's a lot more pages to write for each player, but Jankowski is still in the prologue IMO.

Jankowski:
2015-16 - Providence College GP: 38 G: 15 A: 25 P: 40
2016-17 - Stockton Heat GP: 64 G: 27 A: 29 P: 56
2017-18 - Calgary Flames GP: 72 G: 17 A: 8 P: 25

Nylander
2013-14 Sodertalje SK GP: 17 G: 11 A: 8 P: 19
2014-15 MODO GP: 21 G: 8 A: 12 P: 20
2014-15 Toronto Marlies GP: 37 G: 14 A: 18 P: 32
2015-16 Toronto Marlies GP: 38 G: 18 A: 27 P: 45
2016-17 Toronto Maple Leafs GP: 81 G: 22 A: 39 P: 61
2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs GP: 82 G: 20 A: 41 P: 61

There's no question that in the NHL Nylander has produced far more, but looking at their notable seasons I'm not reading the same story as you are.

When you factor in that Nylander is about 20 months younger, it's a world of difference.

[bax]

I love Janko, but he is nowhere near as valuable as Nylander

[Split98]

Originally Posted by bax

I love Janko, but he is nowhere near as valuable as Nylander

If you're commenting towards me, the conversation is 'I don't see it as all that unreachable'.

If not, I agree

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

The flames roster looks pretty good as is, but statistical models and the eye test still has them as a low seed playoff team. We could surprise in the playoffs but why rely on that. Stone would jack up the top 6 to competitor levels, and that's what Brad should be shooting for.

How do you an eye test on a team in the off-season that made this many changes?

the eye test means what you see on the ice with your eyes, and I'm guessing you ain't seen much yet...