2015/2016 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[saillias]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

People talking about Shore being a fringe NHL'er at the moment. Sure. Most 22 year olds are fringe NHL'ers at this point in their career.

We have been spoiled with our prospects as of late and I think people are losing sight of that. Gaudreau, Bennett, Monahan and to a lesser extent Ferland and Granlund are really exceptions to the rule.

Most guys are not NHL ready until they are 25 or so unless they have elite ceilings.

Meat and Potato guys like shore are the "long term" commitment type players that when they stay in the system and develope with the organization, they tend to be quite servicable bottom 6 guys or sometimes jump out to be exceptional talents.

It scares me to think of how people will view guys like Porier and potentially Klimchuk in a year or two. If they arent ready by 22 and 23, they are busts?!..

Not every player that comes through the pipeline are going to be fulltime NHL'ers by 23 and if they arent, they shouldnt be considered a bust.

A skater that takes till 25 to crack the NHL typically has very limited upside. 4th liner forward or bottom pairing defenseman. It's not normal or average, it's the bottom of the curve. An ordinary contributing NHLer is getting spot-duty or full-time status by 22-23 easily.

This is obviously a generalization and you can point to outliers like Gio.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I really wouldn't be surprised if Shore was waived before the season started, and would only be mildly disappointed if he was claimed.

I just don't see anything special, and with Calgary's vastly increased depth, it just doesn't make too much sense to me in forcing room on the roster while having him not force Trelving's hand other than being waiver eligible. I think if he showed more - if he was making an impact even without putting up the points - I might agree that Treliving should try really hard in retaining him. I just thought he was 'ok' - not good, but definitely not bad. Just roster filler. I have him in the same group as Agostino, Van Brabant and Hathaway. Slightly ahead maybe, and I think his pro experience helps that somewhat, but really not much higher of a ceiling if at all.

Colborne was a great pickup at the time because this team needed young guys to step in and contribute - especially big bodied young players. Colborne got his chance, and made the most of it for the most part. Shore hasn't so much. Horak I thought was much in the same way as Shore - pretty good AHL'er, 'smart' player in the NHL, but without showing much upside. He didn't really force the Flames to retain him, and they deemed him expendable.

Hope he gets retained somehow, but unless a couple of forwards go on IR to start the season, I am expecting Shore to get waived and possibly claimed (still not sure he even gets picked off waivers at the moment with teams trying to send their own guys down as well). Good, young depth guy to try and keep around, but not someone you force into your lineup.

[GioforPM]

If you're going to waive Shore, now's the time to do it, when all the other teams are waiving guys too. If he makes it down, he's a nice insurance policy for injuries, with NHL experience and ability. Or he's part of a better trade package down the road.

Funny: Granlund has smarts, good defensively and a decent shot, but isn't that fast or big and is a bad faceoff man. Shore is big, decent in the dot, but not that fast and doesn't score much. Byron is super fast and OK on defence, but tiny and was snakebit last year. Jooris is fast, has a decent shot, but is not big, not good at faceoffs and not great defensively.

[IgiTang]

Edit:NM. I can see where this is going and I'm trying to turn a new leaf on CP.

What ever happens, I hope it works out best for the Flames.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Colborne didn't play 70 NHL games prior to joining the Flames and he's progressed immensely since game 1 in Calgary.

I'm not judging Shore only on his 11 underwhelming Flames games, but also his 70 even more underwhelming games with the Panthers. He put up abysmal numbers in Florida.

I think you're letting your judgement be clouded by the fact that you've watched Colborne for two seasons. If you look at their production up to the end of their Age 24 Seasons:

Shore (2012-15) - 78GP, 9G, 14A, -16, 1085 TOI, +4.3% CorsiRelativetoTeam, 46.2 FO%, 132 shots on goal
Colborne (2011-14) - 96GP, 11G, 23A, -15, 1342 TOI, -2.5% CorsiRelativetoTeam, 46.7 FO%, 92 shots on goal

Normalized to 1200 minutes that's:

Shore - 10G, 16A, 146 Shots
Colborne - 10G, 20A, 82 Shots

If one was abysmal, the other wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire for "progressing immediately since game 1 in Calgary" (which might have something to do with not being buried on a deep team). They were practically the same calibre of player, except one is good at possession and willing to shoot the puck. And is right-handed.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think you're letting your judgement be clouded by the fact that you've watched Colborne for two seasons. If you look at their production up to the end of their Age 24 Seasons:

Shore (2012-15) - 78GP, 9G, 14A, -16, 1085 TOI, +4.3% CorsiRelativetoTeam, 46.2 FO%, 132 shots on goal
Colborne (2011-14) - 96GP, 11G, 23A, -15, 1342 TOI, -2.5% CorsiRelativetoTeam, 46.7 FO%, 92 shots on goal

Normalized to 1200 minutes that's:

Shore - 10G, 16A, 146 Shots
Colborne - 10G, 20A, 82 Shots

If one was abysmal, the other wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire for "progressing immediately since game 1 in Calgary" (which might have something to do with not being buried on a deep team). They were practically the same calibre of player, except one is good at possession and willing to shoot the puck. And is right-handed.

I think that just proves that both Colborne and Shore are below average NHL players. Both have an upside to be a decent 3rd liner but nothing more. Both were traded by bad teams because they couldn't crack their line-up but had to pass through waivers.

[IgiTang]

I think Colborne is going to have a monster year. He's really learned to use his size and has become more tenacious.

[Gaskal]

Last year he got the same amount of pts as his 1st full season with us, but in considerably less games played. Add that to the fact that he was nursing a wrist injury for a lot of it. So I still feel like there was progression despite the injury setback and that he has a lot more to show.

[Weitz]

I am not sure I follow.

Are we arguing that Shore can be useful to the flames or worth more than a 4th round pick?

Because I think only one of those is true.

I dont think he is more than a dime a dozen NHLer.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think you're letting your judgement be clouded by the fact that you've watched Colborne for two seasons. If you look at their production up to the end of their Age 24 Seasons:

Shore (2012-15) - 78GP, 9G, 14A, -16, 1085 TOI, +4.3% CorsiRelativetoTeam, 46.2 FO%, 132 shots on goal
Colborne (2011-14) - 96GP, 11G, 23A, -15, 1342 TOI, -2.5% CorsiRelativetoTeam, 46.7 FO%, 92 shots on goal

Normalized to 1200 minutes that's:

Shore - 10G, 16A, 146 Shots
Colborne - 10G, 20A, 82 Shots

If one was abysmal, the other wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire for "progressing immediately since game 1 in Calgary" (which might have something to do with not being buried on a deep team). They were practically the same calibre of player, except one is good at possession and willing to shoot the puck. And is right-handed.

Nowhere have I said that Colborne has put up respectable numbers. But as I've mentioned Colborne is 10x the player he was when he first started in the NHL. His game has progressed greatly and he's much more consistent then before. Whereas Shore has still yet to wow Hartley enough to be a regular player.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

you guys are living in a fantasy world if you think Raymond can be traded. Just look at all the similar players on PTO's around the league who can be had for $700k.
Why would anyone want a guy signed for 2 more years at a horrible salary?
I suppose if Flames are paying for about 2/3rds of the salary some one might be interested.
I don't really think Shore has much value either...maybe a low draft pick.
Treliving has been a great GM so far, but he laid an egg with that signing, hopefully he can admit it and send Raymond down and/or get rid of him as soon as possible.

Raymond can be traded - but for another bad contract.

Call up Bryan Murray and offer Raymond for Colin Greening - I'm sure he'd do it. Raymond could probably play in Ottawa's top 12. Murray might even throw in a prospect or pick to do so.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by saillias

A skater that takes till 25 to crack the NHL typically has very limited upside. 4th liner forward or bottom pairing defenseman. It's not normal or average, it's the bottom of the curve. An ordinary contributing NHLer is getting spot-duty or full-time status by 22-23 easily.

This is obviously a generalization and you can point to outliers like Gio.

Yah, I think it was Duhatchuk that mentioned it, but he was saying that players enter their prime at around 25. If a player is only just entering the league at 25, then they're probably not a high end player. Obviously there's exceptions, but I would argue they are in the minority.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Nowhere have I said that Colborne has put up respectable numbers. But as I've mentioned Colborne is 10x the player he was when he first started in the NHL. His game has progressed greatly and he's much more consistent then before. Whereas Shore has still yet to wow Hartley enough to be a regular player.

Colborne was gift wrapped an opportunity with ample ice time due to our lack of depth at the time of his acquisition and had more than his fair share of struggles early on... Shore has received nothing of the sort. There is a reason Shore has garnered so much attention over the past year despite the fact he has not been an NHL regular.

Put me in the camp that would be more than a little disappointed if we lost Shore for nothing (which is a legitimate possibility)

[FlameZilla]

I'd rather keep Shore & instead cut loose one of Raymond, Jones or possibly even Stajan.

Jones will spend plenty of time on the IR anyway, but since he's currently healthy it'll mean someone of Shore's potential will probably have to be exposed to waivers. Jooris could easily replace him, plus Shore & Hathaway provide similar levels of skill but with upside to burn.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Put me in the camp that would be more than a little disappointed if we lost Shore for nothing (which is a legitimate possibility)

The thing about Shore and even Colborne for that matter: they are completely replaceable in every way.

I can't say I'd be disappointed to lose Shore for nothing, because we could probably replace him for next to the same. There are countless Shores and Colbornes out there, and they seem to be easy to develop from what I've seen.

I don't see too many teams in a bind because they're having trouble filling out the bottom 6 with "serviceable" guys.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I'd rather keep Shore & instead cut loose one of Raymond, Jones or possibly even Stajan.

Jones will spend plenty of time on the IR anyway, but since he's currently healthy it'll mean someone of Shore's potential will probably have to be exposed to waivers. Jooris could easily replace him, plus Shore & Hathaway provide similar levels of skill but with upside to burn.

You are talking about waivers when you say "cut loose"? Waiving Stajan is crazy talk, and Jones is quite a good player when healthy (5th or 6th in scoring last year among forwards despite missing time). He scored about as much as Bouma, who everyone loves. Jooris was a good story, but Jones is better.

Raymond could be waived, sure. But that leaves Granlund, Byron and Shore fighting for one remaining NHL spot IMO.

[1qqaaz]

How likely is it that Shore is claimed on waivers if we send him down?

[Fire]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

how likely is it that shore is claimed on waivers if we send him down?

15.824%

[AC]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

How likely is it that Shore is claimed on waivers if we send him down?

Probably high based on Treliving's claim that the player with the most interest from other teams at the deadline was Shore.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by AC

Probably high based on Treliving's claim that the player with the most interest from other teams at the deadline was Shore.

I just don't see it.