2024 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[Hockey]

Originally Posted by Hockey

I have zero hope that Manoah will be good. I'd be surprised if he lasts more then 3 innings

Way to prove me wrong Alek.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

It’s just a poorly built roster being poorly managed

I’m not sure it’s poorly built - no team could overcome 4 prime age all stars becoming below replacement level players .

They have elite starting pitching and D . The bullpen was great to start but has completely fallen apart

But it’s all on the hitting . When every player who is a long term cog in this team can’t hit and has the same holes in their swings , and every new player can hit (KK last year could hit and as the year went on and into this year gets worse ) - you do need to question if something they are being told / the preached approach is the problem

[Roof-Daddy]

The bullpen has been torched by injuries and our 1-2-3 hitters all have sub .600 OPS, these are guys who have been all star caliber hitters for their entire careers.

It's not a poorly built roster, it's just a massively underperforming one.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I’m not sure it’s poorly built - no team could overcome 4 prime age all stars becoming below replacement level players .

They have elite starting pitching and D . The bullpen was great to start but has completely fallen apart

Guerrero, Springer, and Kirk have had steep dropoffs over the last couple of seasons but, despite that, Atkins put all of the team’s eggs in their baskets instead of addressing the holes in the lineup via trade or free agency. As such, I’d argue that it is, in fact, a poorly constructed lineup.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Not sure how division is relevant.
They are 4 games back of wild card, which is

I mean, they have the 12th best record of 15 teams in the AL. They're only 4 games back, but they'd have to pass 5 other non-playoff teams and one current playoff team to make it.

[Cowboy89]

John Schneider & Guillermo Martinez should get canned ASAP. Give Donny Baseball a chance and tell the nerds on the analytics team to take a month off and see what that gives them.

Somehow this team gets worse offensively the 3rd / 4th time in the order. The fact that all players who have been here foe awhile are all seeing their careers dive and performance at the plate struggle tells you there's something going on with approach.

[KelVarnsen]

Yes the players have been disappointing. But they were last year. To bring back same disappointing players makes it poorly constructed.

Atkins despite the strong starting pitching is a failure of a GM. Just like Tre is. And was.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Guerrero, Springer, and Kirk have had steep dropoffs over the last couple of seasons but, despite that, Atkins put all of the team’s eggs in their baskets instead of addressing the holes in the lineup via trade or free agency. As such, I’d argue that it is, in fact, a poorly constructed lineup.

I'll say it for the 5,683rd time, there were only two (2!) proven elite bats on the market this off season and the Jays went after both despite being long shots to land either.

They were pretty much forced to put their eggs in that basket.

[Kasi]

What trade or FA were really available? It was a very light hitters market. Chapman being so high in the rankings shows you something. Plus it seems with Turner they hit really well. I mean other than Ohtani who they tried to get and Soto who they couldn’t get there wasn’t much out there.

I would say that it’s their inability to develop prospects that’s the issue but with Clement, Schneider and some others coming up maybe that’s not as bad as I thought. Still a weakness but not as bad as I thought. Well that’s the hitting side. The fact they don’t have better relief pitching options is a condemnation of their farm system and development.

But yeah it’s the utter collapse of Vlad, Bo, Kirk and Springer who have sunk them.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I'll say it for the 5,683rd time, there were only two (2!) proven elite bats on the market this off season and the Jays went after both despite being long shots to land either.

They were pretty much forced to put their eggs in that basket.

Where did I say that they needed proven elite bats? They needed good bats and there were several - Teo, Soler, Hoskins, Martinez, Gurriel, Pederson…

Nobody forced them to put their eggs in their basket.

[ben voyonsdonc]

I’m anything but surprised that Guerrero, who’s shown decline since 2021, is declining…or Springer who’s 33 and has looked pretty much a shell of the guy who played for the Astros since coming to the Jays…or Kirk who is physically incapable of being an everyday player.

Bichette is somewhat surprising (I think he’ll eventually figure it out) but, at his best, he’s a largely a singles and doubles hitter rather than a pure power bat and he needs guys around him to drive him in.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I’m not sure it’s poorly built - no team could overcome 4 prime age all stars becoming below replacement level players .

They have elite starting pitching and D . The bullpen was great to start but has completely fallen apart

But it’s all on the hitting . When every player who is a long term cog in this team can’t hit and has the same holes in their swings , and every new player can hit (KK last year could hit and as the year went on and into this year gets worse ) - you do need to question if something they are being told / the preached approach is the problem

Why not poorly built and under achieving? I think big are true, this lineup should still compete for a wildcard if playing to their potential but not good enough o battle the elite.

Now they are just truly a bottom third team while being top 10 in salary cause the guys who should be leaders are some of the worst on the team. When varsho is the guy who is standing out you know there’s a problem.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Where did I say that they needed proven elite bats? They needed good bats and there were several - Teo, Soler, Hoskins, Martinez, Gurriel, Pederson…

Nobody forced them to put their eggs in their basket.

Those bats are all mixed bag, that's my point. They could have signed any one of them and they could be here right now not doing a damn thing to improve this club.

And that's assuming they would have even chosen to sign in Toronto lol

I can't believe this same argument keeps coming up.

[KelVarnsen]

I can’t believe you keep making the same argument

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

I can’t believe you keep making the same argument

It's not an argument.

It's a fact. Go look at the players that keep getting brought up. They are inconsistent and weren't a solution to anything that ails the Jays lol

Most of them would make our situation worse because we'd have more money committed to poor players.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Those bats are all mixed bag, that's my point. They could have signed any one of them and they could be here right now not doing a damn thing to improve this club.

And that's assuming they would have even chosen to sign in Toronto lol

I can't believe this same argument keeps coming up.

Don’t respond if you don’t want to discuss it then but it is a valid argument to make.

This team wasn’t good enough last year but relied on an unbelievably healthy pitching staff to get to but embarrassingly disposed of in the wildcard round. They didn’t do anything to make the team better this season…and somehow some folks are surprised that they aren’t good?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Don’t respond if you don’t want to discuss it then but it is a valid argument to make.

This team wasn’t good enough last year but relied on an unbelievably healthy pitching staff to get to but embarrassingly disposed of in the wildcard round. They didn’t do anything to make the team better this season…and somehow some folks are surprised that they aren’t good?

Signing any of those players you mentioned wouldn't have made them any better

Two elite bats that would have moved the needle.

The rest wouldn't without adding more risk so again, not much could have been done

[Kasi]

I think his point is sound. Turner has put up as good numbers as those guys. So say you bring in one more person like that. It really does nothing. So you replace IKF at third with one of them, heck let’s say they kept Chapman who was ranked a higher signing than any of them. The lineup still wouldn’t work because Springer, Bo, Kirk and Vlad are pulling down this team. If your point was they should have brought in more pitchers for relief that would be a solid point but bringing in one of the group you mentioned or keeping Chapman changes nothing.

Also not like Moreno or Gurriel are doing much of anything this year, Varsho is completely outplaying them.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Signing any of those players you mentioned wouldn't have made them any better

Two elite bats that would have moved the needle.

The rest wouldn't without adding more risk so again, not much could have been done

Hernandez or even Gurriel would be miles better than Kevin Kiermaier. Gurriel would be second on the Jays in batting average and HR and would lead the team in RBIs by 33%. Teo would lead the team in HR, RBI and would be second in batting average.

Joc Pederson would be second 3rd in bat WAR in the Jays in only 74 at bats.

I believe that one of the biggest reasons that Guerrero was so good in 2021 is because he was surrounded by guys like Semien, Gurriel, and Hernandez and wasn’t expected to be “the guy”. He doesn’t seem to be capable of carrying the team on his shoulders and needs others to be leaders so that he can simply focus on doing his part.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Hernandez or even Gurriel would be miles better than Kevin Kiermaier. Gurriel would be second on the Jays in batting average and HR and would lead the team in RBIs by 33%. Teo would lead the team in HR, RBI and would be second in batting average.

Joc Pederson would be second 3rd in bat WAR in the Jays in only 74 at bats.

I believe that one of the biggest reasons that Guerrero was so good in 2021 is because he was surrounded by guys like Semien, Gurriel, and Hernandez and wasn’t expected to be “the guy”. He doesn’t seem to be capable of carrying the team on his shoulders and needs others to be leaders so that he can simply focus on doing his part.

Gurriel has a 94 wRC+, that isn't helping the offense.

Hernandez talked to the Jays and wanted a multi year deal, he's 31 and put up 0.8fWAR last season which was his 3rd straight year of declining production and you think the Jays should have given him a multi year deal while they watch Springer fall off a cliff? We don't need another 30+ year old, declining $20+ million corner OFs who can't play very good D.

They reportedly talked to Pedersons camp and he wasn't interested in coming to Toronto, and he is hit or miss year to year anyways if you look at his fangraphs page, he's having a good start this year but that was hardly a sure thing at the time of his signing.

Soler is another sure thing people keep bringing up and he also has a mid 90s wRC+ below league average bat so far. That would be of no help either.

It's funny people bring up the same group of names the Jays "could have brought in to fix the offense" over and over and then you look at the names and go to their fangraphs page and some of them are off to worse starts than the Jays hitters, so yeah which one of these miracle bats was going to be the savior? Ah I guess we'll just the pick the guy who is off to a good start, yeah the Jays should have signed him but not the other three guys I mentioned who are off to bad or below average starts lol

Nevermind the fact that the Jays signed Turner who is one of their top hitters.

Unless they could have landed Ohtani or Soto (which we know was not going to happen) this team was always going to sink or swim on Vlad, Kirk and Springer getting their turd together. Unfortunately they've actually gotten worse and now we've added Bo to the mix plus a plethora of bullpen injuries.

I actually credit the FO for not having signed any of these core guys to lucrative extensions or panicked this off season and signed guys like Chapman/Bellinger/soler to crippling multi year deals that would now just he adding to the problems this team has going forward.