Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Saqe

You think the UN, Amnesty International, the Red Cross or international politicians know what the operational situation is on the ground right now? And I don't think I'm going on a limb saying that we can't trust neither the Palestinians or Israelis to give a non-biased account of the situation.

Yes. I think they know a lot more than we do, because some of those organizations and politicians are either on the ground or have been in contact with people who are. I think they’re extremely familiar with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I think they’re far more in tune with war, war crimes, terrorism, humanitarian efforts, genocide, apartheid, etc than you or I.

Is your solution to trust no one and just let the situation play out without comment?

Originally Posted by Saqe

I said absolutes, not opinions. There are a lot of different opinions out there. But when people claim to absolutely know something or condemn something, that's a problem. History, like usually, will probably tell us ultimately the most complete story.

History usually tells us a much uglier story than the story we’re told in the moment. Maybe it would be helpful if you were specific on all of the “absolutes” that are not actually opinions you are taking issue with. I think opendoor covered the hospital issue fairly well. Can people condemn Hamas’ act of terrorism without history having the chance to tell us the complete story? Or should we wait on that, too?

Originally Posted by Saqe

You think the WHO knows anything about Hamas activity in a hospital?

I think they know the consequences of Israel’s actions, and I think they, along with others, know the law against targeting hospitals and civilian infrastructure. Do you?

Originally Posted by Saqe

And yes, I think comparing the Jews to the Nazis qualifies as anti-semitism. You don't think so?

I think comparing Israel to Germany, when the point you want to make is that Israel is committing genocide, is incredibly lazy and emotion-driven given the difference of scale and procedure (regardless of whether you agree with the claims or genocide). It might be anti-semitic. There are a lot of examples of genocide and apartheid, and the Nazis aren’t a particularly good reference point for many of them for a variety of reasons.

But I don’t think it’s automatic, no, and while it’s listed as something that “could” fall into the definition of anti-semitism, there is also this to say:

However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

And, given how often everything is reduced to a comparison to Nazis in our current climate, I think you have to show that Israel is being criticized that way specifically as a shorthand for “Jews,” and not as a lazy comparison that someone wouldn’t make against any other country doing the same thing.

Which may be the case, I don’t know. Do you know?

What I do know is that posters like Nage have accused a growing list of people of racism, anti-semitism, and compared them to Nazis without anything to back it up. So the accusations have lost meaning, but if you genuinely think there are proud anti-semites on the board, then quote them and shut it down (like you did). Maybe you’re right and I’m wrong about them. I don’t think a general references to anti-semites is helpful, but I’ve also made general references that weren’t helpful either, so who am I to say?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Delthefunky

^^ Especially urban warfare against a military willing to hide behind their own population

That's the thing. It is a two party dance. The Gazan leaders have an obligation not to use civilians in a way that puts them in danger. What they are doing is a war crime against their own people. Israel can only do so much on their end and have told Hamas to separate themselves from non-combatants, but they refused to do it and actively encourage and enforce people to stay close to them.

I don't know, there might be more that the IDF could do to minimize the civilian casualties, and you could probably make that case in any war. There is a balance somewhere, where Israel can hold back and still meet their objectives. Hold back too much though, and they won't meet their objectives. I don't know if groups like the Red Cross and Amnesty International know where that balance point is (I personally don't, and I doubt anyone here is qualified to make that assessment either).

Honestly though, given the scale of destruction to buildings so far, I am surprised that the current casualty rate isn't higher considering that it is one of the most densely population places on the planet. Israel certainly hasn't used all of their might or largest bombs and missiles available to them.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Interesting. I do get this point of view that using the term terrorism implies one side is bad and one is good. If you were to read the British media during the American Revolution, I'm sure they depicted the Continental Army as terrorist because they didn't follow the rules of War stand in straight lines and shoot, but instead hid behind trees and fought dirty.

Didn't the British refer to the Israelis fighting for an independent Jewish state before 1948 as terrorists? Or, I think Menachem Begin, who was Israel's Prime Minister during some high-profile PLO attacks, had been known as a terrorist.

Could be argued past mistakes were made. Frankly I agree with their position. Seems these days every news organization wants to create a good bad narrative in every situation ti tell a story. It’s inherently bias. If this is a step in just telling the facts as they see them, so be it. It’s better than 90% of news outlets out there who sensationalize things to benefit themselves.

[Flacker]

Israel is asking for hospitals to be evacuated because their opponent isn't above using the occupants as human shields. This is urban guerilla warfare, traditional rules of war don't really apply.

If Palestinians civilians don't leave Gaza, I suspect they will be deemed combatants if/when the ground assault begins.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Israel is asking for hospitals to be evacuated because their opponent isn't above using the occupants as human shields. This is urban guerilla warfare, traditional rules of war don't really apply.

If Palestinians civilians don't leave Gaza, I suspect they will be deemed combatants if/when the ground assault begins.

Where are they supposed to go, and how do they get there?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Where are they supposed to go, and how do they get there?

Yeah, JFC. They're trapped in there, yet the onus is on them to leave. But they're trapped, so they can't. But they better or they'll be viewed as combatants. But they can't. Stupid Palestinians.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Israel is asking for hospitals to be evacuated because their opponent isn't above using the occupants as human shields. This is urban guerilla warfare, traditional rules of war don't really apply.

If Palestinians civilians don't leave Gaza, I suspect they will be deemed combatants if/when the ground assault begins.

The rules, or laws, around war always apply.

[Delthefunky]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

That's the thing. It is a two party dance. The Gazan leaders have an obligation not to use civilians in a way that puts them in danger. What they are doing is a war crime against their own people. Israel can only do so much on their end and have told Hamas to separate themselves from non-combatants, but they refused to do it and actively encourage and enforce people to stay close to them.

I don't know, there might be more that the IDF could do to minimize the civilian casualties, and you could probably make that case in any war. There is a balance somewhere, where Israel can hold back and still meet their objectives. Hold back too much though, and they won't meet their objectives. I don't know if groups like the Red Cross and Amnesty International know where that balance point is.

Honestly though, given the scale of destruction to buildings so far, I am surprised that the current casualty rate isn't higher give that it is one of the most densely population places on the planet. Israel certainly hasn't used all of their might or largest bombs and missiles available to them.

Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They need to destroy Hamas, but they're held to an infinitely higher moral standard. When they do finally invade, then what? Hamas will be hiding amongst people, and underground. I'm not an expert either but i don't see how this war will be won without lots of innocent casualties.

I don't know of any precedent where several million people have been evacuated before leveling their city, but I suppose we're about to see how well that goes.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yes. I think they know a lot more than we do, because some of those organizations and politicians are either on the ground or have been in contact with people who are. I think they’re extremely familiar with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I think they’re far more in tune with war, war crimes, terrorism, humanitarian efforts, genocide, apartheid, etc than you or I.

Is your solution to trust no one and just let the situation play out without comment?

They are not military organizations. I'm sure they know a lot about humanitarian problems but they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to the military operations on the ground. This should be blatantly clear.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

History usually tells us a much uglier story than the story we’re told in the moment. Maybe it would be helpful if you were specific on all of the “absolutes” that are not actually opinions you are taking issue with. I think opendoor covered the hospital issue fairly well. Can people condemn Hamas’ act of terrorism without history having the chance to tell us the complete story? Or should we wait on that, too?

Well, that is history. We know what happened and Hamas itself has posted videos that confirm the story. But what we do not know is how the Israelis are operating, what their intel on the ground is or what their plan is.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think they know the consequences of Israel’s actions, and I think they, along with others, know the law against targeting hospitals and civilian infrastructure. Do you?

Ok, so how would you eradicate a terrorist group if it's using civilians as a shield and civilian infrastructure as cover? Like a hospital. I have no idea, I'm not a military expert. My opinion is that it's going to be messy no matter what. There are no good solutions.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, JFC. They're trapped in there, yet the onus is on them to leave. But they're trapped, so they can't. But they better or they'll be viewed as combatants. But they can't. Stupid Palestinians.

Egypt. Aid flows in, non-combatants flow out.

The border opened this morning.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The rules, or laws, around war always apply.

Extremely sheltered world view, if you believe this to be true.

What good are rules or laws if there is no one around to enforce them, or see the atrocities. If neither side has any interest in your established rules or laws, guess what happens?

So no, the rules or laws around warfare, don't always apply.

[WCW Nitro]

Israel not letting aid go through Egypt, but always remember they don't target civilians.

https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-...mt-2023-10-16/

"U.S. officials were hoping that Rafah would operate for a few hours late on Monday, White House spokesman John Kirby said, adding that earlier hopes for opening the crossing had been dashed"

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Egypt. Aid flows in, non-combatants flow out.

The border opened this morning.

It didn’t: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-mid...t-67124768.amp

Originally Posted by Flacker

Extremely sheltered world view, if you believe this to be true.

What good are rules or laws if there is no one around to enforce them, or see the atrocities. If neither side has any interest in your established rules or laws, guess what happens?

So no, the rules or laws around warfare, don't always apply.

They do. Call the ICC and the UN sheltered, what do I care?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flacker

If Palestinians civilians don't leave Gaza, I suspect they will be deemed combatants if/when the ground assault begins.

This post is dumb

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Egypt. Aid flows in, non-combatants flow out.

The border opened this morning.

As far as I have seen, the border is closed to people. Egypt isn't going to let a million refugees in, and I don't blame them, this isn't really their problem. Israel could let them in and give them safety and aid, right? These are innocent non-combatants. Has Israel proposed this?

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I'd like them for starters to allow diesel to the hospital and stop making ridiculous demands that hospitals should be evacuated.
If asking for some compassion towards the sick and the dying gains me a pacifist label. So be it.

I suspect, and believe we will soon have direct evidence of, the extensive Hamas tunnel and underground missile and arms depots situated below hospitals, schools and residential areas with their human shields (including hospital patients) above.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

As far as I have seen, the border is closed to people. Egypt isn't going to let a million refugees in, and I don't blame them, this isn't really their problem. Israel could let them in and give them safety and aid, right? These are innocent non-combatants. Has Israel proposed this?

At the very least they could allow safe passage to the West Bank.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Saqe

They are not military organizations. I'm sure they know a lot about humanitarian problems but they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to the military operations on the ground. This should be blatantly clear.

They absolutely do have a leg to stand on. Military operations are not carried out in isolation, they are subject to international/humanitarian law.

I’m finding it difficult to figure out your position here. No one, including organizations directly involved with people on the ground, can judge a military operation or military attacks aside from the military itself and the government behind that military? Yeesh, sounds… not great.

Originally Posted by Saqe

Well, that is history. We know what happened and Hamas itself has posted videos that confirm the story. But what we do not know is how the Israelis are operating, what their intel on the ground is or what their plan is.

Do we? You said we can’t trust Israelis and Palestinians, and we can’t trust any organization, nor can we trust international politicians, and we’re obviously not going to trust Hamas, so we can only trust… who? I’m happy to trust all of the sources above that confirmed these things happened and the context in which they happened. Are you?

So, we’ll know as soon as it’s done? Can we make condemn the killing of hundreds of children, the displacement of hundreds of thousands, and the destruction of thousands of properties (including civilian properties)? Can we condemn shutting off water, electricity, fuel, food, etc that disproportionately impacts civilians? Genuinely curious. Because the stories have been confirmed we “know” these things to be true, we know these things constitute violations… but we can’t judge them?

Originally Posted by Saqe

Ok, so how would you eradicate a terrorist group if it's using civilians as a shield and civilian infrastructure as cover? Like a hospital. I have no idea, I'm not a military expert. My opinion is that it's going to be messy no matter what. There are no good solutions.

How do you know they’re doing that if you aren’t trusting anyone who is telling us they are doing that?

This question has been answered multiple times and in better ways than I can by multiple people. My opinion is that we should actually listen to what the non-biased organizations involved are actually saying and the alarm bells they’re ringing, and not write it all off in hopes that the military will always do the right thing.

[Tron_fdc]

It's weird that people are complaining about a double standard when it comes to how Israel wants to fight this war.

You're fighting a terrorist organization who use terrorism, and you want to get rid of those terrorists. Fair enough.

But you are arguing that it's ok to act like said terrorists just this once in response because that's the only way to do things here?

You're just going to come off that moral high ground for a bit, kill a bunch of people, and then jump back up there later on when you're done?

That seems ridiculous to me.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

They absolutely do have a leg to stand on. Military operations are not carried out in isolation, they are subject to international/humanitarian law.

This is a total non-sequitur. What does international law have to do with current military operations on the ground and the actions of Israel right now? You may say that Israel should be held to that standard but it tells us nothing about their reasons behind their decisions.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Do we? You said we can’t trust Israelis and Palestinians, and we can’t trust any organization, nor can we trust international politicians, and we’re obviously not going to trust Hamas, so we can only trust… who? I’m happy to trust all of the sources above that confirmed these things happened and the context in which they happened. Are you?

Are you serious? The only thing that both parties of the conflict have both confirmed is the terror attack on Israel. It should be obvious that this actually happened. And generally when opposite sides of the party both confirm something it has a better chance of being true.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So, we’ll know as soon as it’s done? Can we make condemn the killing of hundreds of children, the displacement of hundreds of thousands, and the destruction of thousands of properties (including civilian properties)? Can we condemn shutting off water, electricity, fuel, food, etc that disproportionately impacts civilians? Genuinely curious. Because the stories have been confirmed we “know” these things to be true, we know these things constitute violations… but we can’t judge them?

You can judge them if you want, I don't care. It's super easy to criticize everything that people do. But what is your solution? Israel should just sit back and say, "hey Hamas, no biggie, just keep doing what you are doing"? They have to get rid of Hamas. And yes it's an huge humanitarian catastrophe. It's a war and war is brutal. I'm not sure what your expectation is.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How do you know they’re doing that if you aren’t trusting anyone who is telling us they are doing that?
.

That Hamas is using hospitals as cover? I don't. But then what you're saying is that Israel is targeting purely civilian targets without any other reason than killing civilians. Which wouldn't serve any purpose if the goal is to kill Hamas. Also by evacuating north Gaza it's something they have tried not to do, or at least minimize casualties. So my assumption is that they aren't doing it just for kicks.