PGT: President-Elect Donald J Trump

[zamler]

The same demographic that voted in Trump also are responsible for voting in Obama. Twice. This simple fact destroys any notion that there is some heinous voter base that has put Trump in the White House and those voters hate everything except straight white clan members.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Those are behaviours though that are a result of tribalism. They aren't ingrained aspects of human nature.

Right... murder is caused by tribalism. Now I've seen everything.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well, surely sometimes it is, right? In fact, a hell of a lot of it is... particularly religious tribalism.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by zamler

The same demographic that voted in Trump also are responsible for voting in Obama. Twice. This simple fact destroys any notion that there is some heinous voter base that has put Trump in the White House and those voters hate everything except straight white clan members.

Isn't this the "I can't be racist I have black friends" argument?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Not sure how I'm hypocritical but I'll roll with it. I also learned I have a sense of self important elitism today and that's pretty cool.

I think we are having a failure to communicate regarding semantics. I won't go so far as to call it hypocritical but I think we can both agree that a large portion of the right has mocked "triggering" for quite some time don't you think? I find it side splittingly hilarious that these same people are now chastising the left for being too blunt about how they approach those who believe awful things. The "non PC" party gets upset when you point out awful crap they believe. You don't want to hear about white privilege? Well that kind of sucks because it's a thing and ignoring it isn't going to fix anything. That's why uncomfortable truths have the word uncomfortable in front of them.

The television mogul and real estate man who has been elected was objectively hateful on both the campaign trail and in his public history. Many would like to argue he's not racist so fine, we'll tone it down to bigoted or prejudiced. He is clearly, to me at least, misogynistic and there is now a VP in place who is so unapologetically homophobic that I'm surprised there's any debate. Conversion therapy? C'mon son.

These are not acceptable views. Sorry let me clarify that. I don't want to believe I live in a place where these are the kinds of views that should be considered acceptable for political policy. In a civilised society they have no place in government and by normalizing them and saying "let's discuss this reasonably" they're being given a level of respectability they don't deserve. You want to believe terrible things at home? Go ahead I can't stop you but for a country and for the commander in Chief it's an embarrassment.

Now not everyone who voted Trump is an out and out Muslim hating, sexual assault advocating, race baiting hate monger. Thinking that would be silly. But it stands to reason that a large section of those who did vote Trump didn't find any of those things to be a big enough problem to guide their conscience somewhere else. There are other options of course. Perhaps they don't consider social issues to be important in the least in a vote for president, maybe they don't possess the capacity to understand the repurcussions of these ideas, or maybe they are kind of awful people. These are all options I'd think but that's part of my liberal elitism showing through and I'm ok with that.

What my rambling is saying is that tired and frustrated doesn't get to be the cop out argument for why you don't want to address it. That it makes you uncomfortable is a good thing, because that means you know it's crappy. Sure they have their own problems with poverty or loss of jobs and that sucks but it doesn't absolve them from the consequences of their vote.

Apologies if this is all over the place, I was just trying to capture the spirit of the thing you know?

Yes, this was all over the place, and thus difficult to respond to, but there are a couple points I would like to address:

First: yes, Trump campaigned using racist, misogynistic and homophobic undertones (and sometime blatant statements), but you are projecting those statements/beliefs to the entire voter-base. This is where you're bringing anger, hatred, and bigotry into your argument (and thus the hyprocrisy).

I don't like him either. I can't relate to middle America either.

But voting for Trump doesn't make a person a racist or a homophobe.

Attacking the issue with hatred and vitriol a) doesn't do anything to improve things, and b) makes you little different than the people you are attacking.

Racism/bigotry/hatred is a weapon that can be pointed in any direction.

[ResAlien]

So be tolerant of their intolerance. This should end well.

Projecting those statements onto his voter base? They were his statements and platform and the people voted for him, that's not even a tacit acceptance of those views it's outright support. How is that angry, hateful, or bigoted on my part to point that out?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Right... murder is caused by tribalism. Now I've seen everything.

As Corsi just said it's a huge cause of it, and was a huge cause of much of the violence and murder that Cliff was referring to humanity having reduced. Wars in general are rooted in tribalism.

That's grade school stuff.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, surely sometimes it is, right? In fact, a hell of a lot of it is... particularly religious tribalism.

Tell the families of the 5 people stabbed to death in Brentwood that tribalism is to blame.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Anybody reading/read Hillbilly Elegy? It provides some pretty interesting insight into poor white middle America and its motivations.

In a weird way, just as much of the left could be viewed as being a collection of minority groups who "want in" on what has traditionally been regarded as white privileges, poor or nearing poor white folks now seem to be their own minority group chasing the same thing.

And I can see how the positions taken by many leftist groups offend them. It would suck to be accused of having white privilege when - while being white - you certainly don't seem to be enjoying many privileges. That could get tiring.

This is actually a really good point being brought up here, and it ties in well with my comment that people inherently care first and foremost about themselves.

In rural America especially, heroin/opioid use has become an epidemic. For people in these small towns, they're seeing large swaths of their population affected by it. They want a change, as they should, because this is a public health crisis. They vote Trump because they want change, they want someone to pay attention to this issue that's cutting straight through their towns.

Meanwhile, the wealthy white people I'm dealing with at work who voted Trump are ranting about why ambulances are carrying around overdose antidotes, because "those junkies are draining our healthcare system."

While heroin abuse is a huge issue for those rural voters who voted Trump in order to draw attention to themselves, for those rich white people in bigger cities, they couldn't care less about those "junkies." They voted Trump because of tax breaks and because he'll end the estate tax (I actually have clients who stated this explicitly).

There are plenty of Trump voters who are worried about lost jobs and opioid abuse, but there are just as many rich old white people who voted for him solely to keep as much of their own money as possible, and I don't quite think all those disenfranchised types in rural America realize that to those well-off Trump voters with lots of money, their concerns are an afterthought at best.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Tell the families of the 5 people stabbed to death in Brentwood that tribalism is to blame.

What?!

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Tell the families of the 5 people stabbed to death in Brentwood that tribalism is to blame.

Uh... no? I refuse!

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. That not all murder is directly linked to tribal behaviour? Yep, okay. I'm with you. What's your point?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by zamler

The same demographic that voted in Trump also are responsible for voting in Obama. Twice. This simple fact destroys any notion that there is some heinous voter base that has put Trump in the White House and those voters hate everything except straight white clan members.

Umm what? That is a massive over-generalization, don't you think?

We're talking about 110-120 million voters here (plus a large contingent of those that voted in one but not the other election)

Sure, there were some voters that went from one to the other, but suggesting the same people voted in bot Obama and Trump is as empty as a statement could be.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As Corsi just said it's a huge cause of it, and was a huge cause of much of the violence and murder that Cliff was referring to humanity having reduced. Wars in general are rooted in tribalism.

War and murder are not the same thing.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Keep losing? The Democrats lost one election, after being in power for eight years.

This whole theory of "this attitude will ensure __________" has been around for about three days, but apparently it's now the gospel.

In 2008 the Dems controlled the presidency, 257 seats in Congress and 57 Senate seats. They controlled everything, both houses and the presidency.

Since then (though multiple elections) the Dems have lost 64 seats in Congress, at least 10 Senate seats and the presidency. The GOP now control everything.

Just sayin.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Uh... no? I refuse!

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. That not all murder is directly linked to tribal behaviour? Yep, okay. I'm with you. What's your point?

Pepsifree made the claim. I'm laughing at it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by zamler

The same demographic that voted in Trump also are responsible for voting in Obama. Twice. This simple fact destroys any notion that there is some heinous voter base that has put Trump in the White House and those voters hate everything except straight white clan members.

A component of that same demographic. Not the whole thing. Don't think for a second that everyone who voted for Obama voted for Trump. That is false.

For all the diversion that is going on from Trump's racist behaviors, and his reliance on overt racism and misogyny as a strategy, it appears that it is still playing a large role in his organization, especially the establishment of his advisor staff. Steve Bannon's inclusion is a complete endorsement of those very same racist and misogynistic ideals that were put on display during the campaign. I don't know how anyone can dodge that direct connection.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Jacks

In 2008 the Dems controlled the presidency, 257 seats in Congress and 57 Senate seats. They controlled everything, both houses and the presidency. Since then (though multiple elections) the Dems have lost 64 seats in Congress, at least 10 Senate seats and the presidency. The GOP now control everything. Just sayin.

Plus Brexit, plus nationalist movements increasing momentum in Europe, so on and so forth. We seem to have largely avoided this trend in Canada, thankfully, but we've largely had a majority conservative government for much of that time (and not, like, far-right conservative), so there was nothing to backlash against. Hopefully that continues.

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Pepsifree made the claim. I'm laughing at it.

Not to speak for him, but I took him to mean that things like murder are actually second-order human behaviours. That is, we don't have a natural tendency to murder each other (psychopaths notwithstanding). Rather, murder is simply the product of our natural tendencies. Tribalism is one such tendency, greed is another, territorial instincts might be one, and so on. So his claim wasn't "all murder is rooted in tribalism".

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

War and murder are not the same thing.

Congrats, you solved the case.

Thread closed everyone.

Guess what war involves a lot of.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

So be tolerant of their intolerance. This should end well.

Projecting those statements onto his voter base? They were his statements and platform and the people voted for him, that's not even a tacit acceptance of those views it's outright support. How is that angry hateful, or bigoted on my part to point that out?

There are only two (real) choices in the US election. Making assumptions about why half the voterbase voted for one of the two choices is a rather touchy and presumptuous game, don't you think?

If you are intolerant, while making sweeping generalizations, are you any better? That's the point (re: hypocrisy).

Anyway, I think you are simply still angry and that is what is motivating your posts. I've made my point and I'm out.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There are only two (real) choices in the US election. Making assumptions about why half the voterbase voted for one of the two choices is a rather touchy and presumptuous game, don't you think?

If you are intolerant, while making sweeping generalizations, are you any better? That's the point (re: hypocrisy).

Anyway, I think you are simply still angry and that is what is motivating your posts. I've made my point and I'm out.

I appreciate your concern but I'm not close to angry. Saddened for the state of the country I live in? Definitely.

I do however reject your idea that intolerance deserves respect or tolerance. That is how extremist views are normalized, that's how awfulness creeps into the allowable public consciousness.