[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Magnum PEI

I guess I was expecting something amazing, and this just isnt.

Sums up my thoughts on the whole presentation.

CalgaryNext. It's not ideal for you but it's economical for us.

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Less seats mean more ticket tax. Supply is way less than the demand

This is sort of what I mean.

[flambers]

My biggest surprise, Flames seem to be in the preliminary stages of the project...

Could take years before they actually start......

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by stamps

I don't like the multi purpose Field house/ Football stadium , stands do not look symmetrical for football games and it is visually unappealing .... I guess it is a compromise to secure funding .... I hope this is only preliminary and the real product is designed a lot better .... I thought multi sport facilities were a thing of the past , its like we are going backwards in regards to the football stadium ....

What picture are you talking about? The ones I've seen it looks pretty much the same as McMahon seating wise, it has stands on both sides of the field and nothing in the end zones.

It looks like the luxury boxes from the arena can see into the stadium as well from the one end zone.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by GGG

Missing, if you add in the 200 million for it you get to 950 they are pitching for the whole project ex-land. That 1.2 billion separate number feels like a sales pitch.

The more I think about it the less I like using the CRL to fund the arena. If you compare this to the East Village CRL you would spend the CRL money on re-alligning bow trail and to fund the cities share of the Creasote clean and building new parkland along the river front. This would do more to attract residential and commercial investment as building a stadium.

For me to really to support this the flames need to kick in 450 and the CRL needs to be used to improve the area to make it attractive for the commercial investments. Otherwise build just an arena in the 12th ave space using the the ticket tax and the flames 200 million and call it a day.

I'd support the following model

Flames -- 450
City - 200 (fieldhouse money)
CRL - Clean up and bow trail reallignment
Ticket Fee - 250

with the flames owning the complex and responsibile for maitenance with an operating subsidy from the city for the public portion of the field house consistant with arrangements made with other private operators of community facilities like Trico or the YMCA in shawnesse.

The current model leaves the area looking like Seattle. 2 beautiful stadiums in a dumpy area at the outskirts of downtown blocked off from the water by a viaduct with no commercial development to be seen in the area.

One thing I would point out here is that I think King mentioned they are hoping for a split for site remediation Flames/City/Province/Federal. Your plan for the CRL going to that wouldn't be needed if they could get that deal in motion.

[Regular_John]

Well after sleeping on it I'm feeling a little underwhelmed. The presentation itself feels a lot more like an early investors deck (which in a way it is) then a well conceived plan. It's quite short on details and has a 'smoke & mirrors' feel to it.

Like Ken King & Co just don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet, so they're intentionally withholding information.

Secondly the general location/set up of the site itself seem very geared to "get off the train, walk to the game, after the game climb on the train and GTFO", as it certainly doesn't appear that restaurants/bars are being given much thought. It doesn't look like they are positioning CalgaryNext as the type of place you go down to 2 hours before the game and have a beer/bite to eat, or a place to watch the big games if you can't get a ticket.

I guess I'd rather see something like Toronto or Winnipeg where the public can gather outside and enjoy the game day atmosphere... I'm assuming tail gate parties are not part of the plans at all.

Anyways, after years and years of "something's coming soon guys! It's gonna blow your mind!" I'm left a little disappointed. I was hoping for a more integrated project.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

One thing I would point out here is that I think King mentioned they are hoping for a split for site remediation Flames/City/Province/Federal. Your plan for the CRL going to that wouldn't be needed if they could get that deal in motion.

That deal should be on the table without an arena with only the flames portion of the clean up being outstanding. Once more info comes out on the flames dollar commitment on clean up we can re-evaluate it but right now the clean up money pleged by the flames is zero. If that number rose to 100 million the deal becomes more interesting.

In general I think the cresote clean up is a red herring in the discussion. It is a tax payer liability that needs to be dealt with regardless of who develops the land and no private developer is going to contribute more than the cleaned up value of the land. So if the land is worth 50 million clean that is the max contribution you will get from the flames or any other private developer.

The only argument in favour of the flames around clean up is that you have a developer who is willing to move forward now.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by GGG

That deal should be on the table without an arena with only the flames portion of the clean up being outstanding. Once more info comes out on the flames dollar commitment on clean up we can re-evaluate it but right now the clean up money pleged by the flames is zero. If that number rose to 100 million the deal becomes more interesting.

In general I think the cresote clean up is a red herring in the discussion. It is a tax payer liability that needs to be dealt with regardless of who develops the land and no private developer is going to contribute more than the cleaned up value of the land. So if the land is worth 50 million clean that is the max contribution you will get from the flames or any other private developer.

The only argument in favour of the flames around clean up is that you have a developer who is willing to move forward now.

It should be on the table, but maybe it doesn't happen without the Flames pushing for it since it hasn't happened after all these years? The city/province/feds don't really give the clean up a second thought at the moment unless the Flames want to develop the area.

There are debates on how much the clean up will cost which is why I think the Flames and city are hesitant to comment on the cost. If you're either party you don't want to commit to a figure until you have all your information.

This last part isn't a comment directly at you but a comment in general, I understand people are underwhelmed or looking for more info but this is really just a first step in a long list of steps. This whole process is a negotiation so you obviously have to keep your cards close to your chest on both sides. There is 0% the Flames would come out with a proposal that everyone was on board with, but for a starting point I think they are in pretty good shape. I think it's similar to when you go to the bank to get a preapproval on a mortgage, you know what you have in mind for a house and now you are seeing if what you want is possible.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Where's the fieldhouse in your breakdown?

I think the fieldhouse and stadium should still be combined as in the next post showing where the money goes, the savings seem to be where they combine those two facilities.

As someone else mentions it seems to be a place where you go straight to the game and then leave. Separating the stadium-fieldhouse from the arena could leave some space for bars and restaurants where fans can relax before and after the game.

[shermanator]

A day later, and this is just so disappointing. To me, it seems like the Flames know they are going to be in tough to get public money for an arena AND a football stadium, so they decided to jam the fieldhouse in on top of that to get $200 mil from the city (that the city doesn't actually have). It just feels clunky and thrown together.

Cities everywhere are tearing down their indoor multisport stadiums, and Calgary wants to build one? It just seems like backwards thinking, not forward thinking.

Personally, I'd be more willing to see public money to go towards a proper arena and proper football stadium than this monstrosity they came up with.

This is without even touching how absolutely unsuitable it is for soccer, save for maybe being part of a 2026 World Cup bid.

[The Hendog]

Question for the people that say renovate McMahon Stadium
How do you renovate concrete?

[HotHotHeat]

Are there any figures that separate the cost of the land remediation?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

It should be on the table, but maybe it doesn't happen without the Flames pushing for it since it hasn't happened after all these years? The city/province/feds don't really give the clean up a second thought at the moment unless the Flames want to develop the area.

There are debates on how much the clean up will cost which is why I think the Flames and city are hesitant to comment on the cost. If you're either party you don't want to commit to a figure until you have all your information.

This last part isn't a comment directly at you but a comment in general, I understand people are underwhelmed or looking for more info but this is really just a first step in a long list of steps. This whole process is a negotiation so you obviously have to keep your cards close to your chest on both sides. There is 0% the Flames would come out with a proposal that everyone was on board with, but for a starting point I think they are in pretty good shape. I think it's similar to when you go to the bank to get a preapproval on a mortgage, you know what you have in mind for a house and now you are seeing if what you want is possible.

I guess I see the flames commitment at 200 million, it doesn't really matter where the money goes (clean up or building the building) that's their current commitment. They left themselves negotiating room to add a few million here in there by financing the ticket tax or by contributing to the clean up but that 200 million number is probably within 30% of the final number the flames could be convinced to contribute.

As for the clean up in general I think the question is does downtown need to open up more commercial and residential space right now? or to you wait to deal with this area until the East Villiage approaches capactiy. If the city is going to subsidize development it shouldnt be competing with itself to do it.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by shermanator

A day later, and this is just so disappointing. To me, it seems like the Flames know they are going to be in tough to get public money for an arena AND a football stadium, so they decided to jam the fieldhouse in on top of that to get $200 mil from the city (that the city doesn't actually have). It just feels clunky and thrown together.

Cities everywhere are tearing down their indoor multisport stadiums, and Calgary wants to build one? It just seems like backwards thinking, not forward thinking.

Personally, I'd be more willing to see public money to go towards a proper arena and proper football stadium than this monstrosity they came up with.

This is without even touching how absolutely unsuitable it is for soccer, save for maybe being part of a 2026 World Cup bid.

But would you be willing to spend $330mm more for separate facilities? How is it unsuitable for soccer? While compromise will be necessary in combining a fieldhouse/CFL stadium, I think that compromise is essential. I don't see how a stand-alone fieldhouse is sustainable, nor a separate CFL facility. Combined, at least there is a chance. Combine that with an arena, hotel, conference centre, restaurants and bars, and then you might really have something.
I don't get too caught up in the renderings. I think in the end, there will be more open public space and plenty of development for bars/restaurants. I think King was being careful, in particular with the Counsellors at the table, to ensure that it didn't look like a massive red mile development that the NIMBYs would jump all over.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Are there any figures that separate the cost of the land remediation?

890 million excludes land and clean up.

That's the cost for buidlings, parking and LRT connections. Any other infastructure improvements would be separate.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I think the fieldhouse and stadium should still be combined as in the next post showing where the money goes, the savings seem to be where they combine those two facilities.

As someone else mentions it seems to be a place where you go straight to the game and then leave. Separating the stadium-fieldhouse from the arena could leave some space for bars and restaurants where fans can relax before and after the game.

This arena complex will not take up the entire space of the West Village. CSE's plan calls for additional residential, shopping (which would include bars), commercial, etc. The arena project is meant to be the catalyst for getting clean-up and the build out of the area started.

The unanswered question here is whether CalgaryNEXT's vision of the hotel, convention centre, residentail areas, shops, etc. is part of their own plan that would be built later, or if they are assuming someone else will come along after they build.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

From an angle, fast food containers. From above, a big footprint?

a panini maker?

[Strange Brew]

So is this the right location for a fieldhouse whose primary purpose will be to serve amateur sports? Seems to that parking and accessibility will be critical for such a facility. Youth sports teams aren't going to be taking public transit to their practices and games are they?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GGG

I'd support the following model

Flames -- 450
City - 200 (fieldhouse money)
CRL - Clean up and bow trail reallignment
Ticket Fee - 250

The biggest problem with this model is that it's worse for the Flames ownership than just privately building their own arena somewhere else. The stamps don't economically justify building a new stadium, which means essentially all of the private contribution (450+250=700MM) is coming from the arena. Since they could build a gorgeous arena including land for less than that, it would be a bad deal for them.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by jaydorn

Like Ken King & Co just don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet, so they're intentionally withholding information.

I think the sad reality is not that they don't want to let the cat out of the bag, it's that this is the cat. This thin, poorly thought out plan, one that is also asking someone else to pay for 80% of it, is what they have so far.

I hate to say it, but despite the shady financing that went up north, this right now pales in comparison to what is being built in Edmonton.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So is this the right location for a fieldhouse whose primary purpose will be to serve amateur sports? Seems to that parking and accessibility will be critical for such a facility. Youth sports teams aren't going to be taking public transit to their practices and games are they?

They would be required to have some parking. For routine fieldhouse use, what they will have will probably be largely sufficient. There just won't be enough for 19,000 hockey fans or 30,000 football fans to all drive down.