Has the USA finally had enough of Israel's foot dragging and obstruction?

[FlamingStuffedTiger]

Originally Posted by Azure

What exactly is your point?

That Arabs aren't living peacefully in Israel?

Possibly, but the quoted study kind of rings hollow when the government currently seems to be supporting the forceful eviction of Palestinian families and replacing them with mainly Jewish settlements in my opinion.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

BZZZT

Wrong. Israel is a theocratic Jewish state enshrined in their laws.

Wrong. Israel is a culturally Jewish state but subscribes to English Common Law.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamingStuffedTiger

Possibly, but the quoted study kind of rings hollow when the government currently seems to be supporting the forceful eviction of Palestinian families and replacing them with mainly Jewish settlements in my opinion.

Which is why the idea of settlements are stupid.

But that doesn't change the fact that there are many Arabs living quite comfortably in Israel. And many of them are subject to the rocket attacks as well.

[Pastiche]

Yes I am wrong, Theocratic is a country ruled by religious elites. Israel is a religious state, based on a religious cultural identity. Got them mixed up. Theocracies are definitely scarier than Israel. I point you to Iran or Saudi Arabia.

With respect to Turkey and American aid, the reason they received so much military aid was because of the Cold War. They were right on the front of the Cold War and were considered to be the lynchpin against the spread of communism to the Arab world. Alot of good reading on the American-Turkish relationship out there.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

Yes I am wrong, Theocratic is a country ruled by religious elites. Israel is a religious state, based on a religious cultural identity. Got them mixed up. Theocracies are definitely scarier than Israel. I point you to Iran or Saudi Arabia.

With respect to Turkey and American aid, the reason they received so much military aid was because of the Cold War. They were right on the front of the Cold War and were considered to be the lynchpin against the spread of communism to the Arab world. Alot of good reading on the American-Turkish relationship out there.

This is what makes the middle east so interesting right now. I think this is another version of a cold war. The West props up governments to reduce the spread of assorted types of governments and nations like Iran are trying to turn countries to be just like them. Could Israel be to Iran what Cuba was to the US?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlamingStuffedTiger

I pretty much agree with your post. I'm sure that there are also some internal political pressures at play as well. Many of the Orthodox Jews have long been in favor of the settlement project and I'm sure that the government would face some backlash if they were to bow to international pressure here. Because of this, I'm really waiting on the Israel's final stance on all of this before I make up my mind about what it all means. In any case, as far as I can tell, its a pretty messy situation over there

I don't disagree that there are pressures from within Israel to keep the settlements, but I still think this whole "diplomatic row" is one big song and dance.

You're right though, nobody will know until we see Israel's final stance. In this case it would be pretty easy to fake a final stance. Like I said before the ground work for this construction is not set to begin for several years. Israel can easily put a halt on the construction. Then if talks fail just pick up where they left behind.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't disagree that there are pressures from within Israel to keep the settlements, but I still think this whole "diplomatic row" is one big song and dance.

You're right though, nobody will know until we see Israel's final stance. In this case it would be pretty easy to fake a final stance. Like I said before the ground work for this construction is not set to begin for several years. Israel can easily put a halt on the construction. Then if talks fail just pick up where they left behind.

The Israeli gov't is a coalition gov't. The people who support the settlements are holding this coalition together/ under hostage, hence they have the big hammer. This stance of Israel could change with a new election.

[Bleeding Red]

Having some reservations about wading in at this point, but here it goes.

- two questions, two answers:
1) Has Israel proven that they are willing to dismantle settlements and relocate population in return for a comprehensive peace deal? YES - Israel dismantled the settlements in Sinai and relocated those citizens after the peace deal with Egypt. Why assume that they would not do it again for peace?

2) Have Palestinian representatives shown a willingness to end terrorism/violence? Yes and No - I think in the West Bank the PA has made some token attempts root out terrorists, but Hamas only has an interest in encouraging terrorism.

One side has shown they are willing to do something internally politically problematic for peace the other has not.


On the Foreign Aid front - all that aid the US gives comes with a virtual rope attached. The US doesn't give Israel money to go buy missiles from Germany or jet aircraft from France. Most of that money must be spent in the US according to their parameters - you want a US plane, you must buy the US radar system.

What about some of the other US Foreign Aid recipients? Egypt has political parties calling for the destruction of America, officials calling for the burning of books, oppression of Christians, Homosexuals, and Jews. When will the US close that bank account (#2 on the aid list)?

What is the ROI on the US's support of Taiwan?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Having some reservations about wading in at this point, but here it goes.

- two questions, two answers:
1) Has Israel proven that they are willing to dismantle settlements and relocate population in return for a comprehensive peace deal? YES - Israel dismantled the settlements in Sinai and relocated those citizens after the peace deal with Egypt. Why assume that they would not do it again for peace?

2) Have Palestinian representatives shown a willingness to end terrorism/violence? Yes and No - I think in the West Bank the PA has made some token attempts root out terrorists, but Hamas only has an interest in encouraging terrorism.

One side has shown they are willing to do something internally politically problematic for peace the other has not.


On the Foreign Aid front - all that aid the US gives comes with a virtual rope attached. The US doesn't give Israel money to go buy missiles from Germany or jet aircraft from France. Most of that money must be spent in the US according to their parameters - you want a US plane, you must buy the US radar system.

What about some of the other US Foreign Aid recipients? Egypt has political parties calling for the destruction of America, officials calling for the burning of books, oppression of Christians, Homosexuals, and Jews. When will the US close that bank account (#2 on the aid list)?

What is the ROI on the US's support of Taiwan?

#1: You missed 5 years ago when Israel unilaterally withdrew (forcefully removed) Jew, Zionist nazis occupiers from Gaza. Hamas took the opportunity to turn vineyard into bunkers and continually shell every Jew in sight

Taiwan...I don't know...maybe they have some Commie Monolith that continually looks to destroy them.

Just remember they invented everything before they went back to the stone ages.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by HOZ

#1: You missed 5 years ago when Israel unilaterally withdrew (forcefully removed) Jew, Zionist nazis occupiers from Gaza. Hamas took the opportunity to turn vineyard into bunkers and continually shell every Jew in sight

Yah, but there was no deal in place for that move. All it showed was that Israel is willing to leave if life gets tough for them.

Taiwan...I don't know...maybe they have some Commie Monolith that continually looks to destroy them.

Doesn't that Commie Monolith a) just want to repatriate their islandprovince and b) hold the US's debt? I wonder what would happen if China said "walk away from Taiwan and we will forgive all you debt. Don't and we will call in your markers."

[CaptainCrunch]

I remember Emo Phillips made a good joke about anyone calling in their markers.

China - "We want our money now"

USA - "Sorry dudes, we spent all of our money on these nuclear warheads"

China - "Don't worry about debt"

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I remember Emo Phillips made a good joke about anyone calling in their markers.

China - "We want our money now"

USA - "Sorry dudes, we spent all of our money on these nuclear warheads"

China - "Don't worry about debt"

China - "funny, we didn't have to go in debt to make ours."

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

China - "funny, we didn't have to go in debt to make ours."

America

Yeah, but you have 12 long range ICBM we have like a thousand. And don't forget about those invisible jets

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by valo403

I know you are but what am I?

Really? Is that what it comes down to? Hilarious.

You sure are easily entertained....simple minds and all I guess.

As for Israel, I dont think anyone can really debate that they are the one entity in this dispute that has given up land etc, in an attempt to try and end this thing. It is never enough for the PLO though...and i have a feeling it never will be until/unless they get all of it and eviscerate the entire Jewish population.

It just keeps going back and forth, both sides share blame, niether looks as if they will change. I saw this AM that the Palestinians are back to throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers....much like it was 40 years ago.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You sure are easily entertained....simple minds and all I guess.

As for Israel, I dont think anyone can really debate that they are the one entity in this dispute that has given up land etc, in an attempt to try and end this thing. It is never enough for the PLO though...and i have a feeling it never will be until/unless they get all of it and eviscerate the entire Jewish population.

It just keeps going back and forth, both sides share blame, niether looks as if they will change. I saw this AM that the Palestinians are back to throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers....much like it was 40 years ago.

Depends on what side you're on. In the eyes of many Palestinians Israel is only giving up something they took unjustly.

And yes simple minded it is

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Doesn't that Commie Monolith a) just want to repatriate their islandprovince and b) hold the US's debt? I wonder what would happen if China said "walk away from Taiwan and we will forgive all you debt. Don't and we will call in your markers."

The truth of it is, Formosa being a part of China is disputable. IIRC it was originally inhabited by Malay's who took a liking to piracy and the west forced the Chinese emperor to occupy it to stop the piracy. China has no more real claim to Taiwan, if you think of our United Empire Loyalists, than the United States has to Canada.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by HOZ

The Israeli gov't is a coalition gov't. The people who support the settlements are holding this coalition together/ under hostage, hence they have the big hammer. This stance of Israel could change with a new election.

Israeli politics are very dynamic. New coalitions are constantly being formed. If the government decided to take a different stance, it doesn't necessarily mean the end of government.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yah, but there was no deal in place for that move. All it showed was that Israel is willing to leave if life gets tough for them.

Not even close to what happened. That is how the Hamas propaghanda machine painted it, but the withdrawal from Gaza was an act of good will.

Prior to the withdrawal Hamas was not in power. There were elected after the withdrawal. The Jewish residents in Gaza were in control of large swaths of land and totally secure. There had been virtually no terrorist attacks inside Gaza. They were not leavign because "life was tough".

A large part of Israel's decision to withdraw was US pressure on Ariel Sharon. I wonder why Israel may be dragging their feet now?

[Traditional_Ale]

Why don't we just exterminate all the....oh wait....

[troutman]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I remember Emo Phillips made a good joke about anyone calling in their markers.

China - "We want our money now"

USA - "Sorry dudes, we spent all of our money on these nuclear warheads"

China - "Don't worry about debt"

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/09/09gobama.phtml

Interpreter: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to add that I completely understand why you feel entitled to come here and lecture China on our shortcomings. After all, my country does owe the United States a great deal of money. Oh, wait! Hold on a moment! I believe I had that backwards. In fact, now that I think about it, it is your country that owes us a large sum of money. Is this correct?

Interpreter: Will you kiss me?

President Barack Obama: [ confused ] Sorry?

Interpreter: Will you kiss me?

President Barack Obama: I don't understand.

Interpreter: I like to be kissed... [ they raise their voices ] when someone is doing sex to me!!

Interpreter: Say, while you're here, are you at least going to treat me to dinner and a movie?

President Barack Obama: I'm sorry?

Interpreter: I think it's the polite thing to do... [ they raise their voices ] before doing sex to me!

[ Hu Jintao bends over ]