Democratic Presidential Primaries 2008

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

You know, you might not remember a certain charismatic guy who ran on a platform of hope, change, optimism and bipartisanship. He didn't make a lot of concrete proposals, but he looked good, and people sure liked him. In the end, he wasn't a great president, but he was a lot better than the guy he replaced, and that was enough.

His name was Ronald Reagan.

Republicans loved Reagan. They would argue that he was a great president, no?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

Republicans loved Reagan. They would argue that he was a great president, no?

That's kind of my point. Azure is CONVINCED, for reasons known only to himself, that Obama will be a terrible president if he wins. He even compared him to Carter. I'm just pointing out that Reagan is a far more apt comparison.

I also stand by my McCain-Mondale comparison. Which spells trouble for the GOP if that's the matchup.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

That's kind of my point. Azure is CONVINCED, for reasons known only to himself, that Obama will be a terrible president if he wins. He even compared him to Carter. I'm just pointing out that Reagan is a far more apt comparison.

I also stand by my McCain-Mondale comparison. Which spells trouble for the GOP if that's the matchup.

I see your point. Elections based on charisma can swing either way.

In such a volatile period with a unpopular war, a sagging economy and a very divided political nation, I hope that the next President is elected based on more than looking good on camera and being able to deliver catch phrases to the masses.

I've always maintained that Obama might be a great president (even if he's so left he, would traditionally be, unelectable...) but I cant wait for the nomination to be over so McCain and Obama/Hillary can start standing toe-to-toe and address specifically what their intentions are and the specifics of their platform. Im tired of Obama running on momentum and keeping his "Change Count" high in every speech.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yeah.

I suppose it was good enough for Carter too to tell everyone how he was going to change America.

Look at how that turned out.

You remember Carter? You rmember the situation the country was in and how Carter handled matters during his tenure? You remember Reagan? You remember what is was like to live under his administration's policies?

Just wondering.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I see your point. Elections based on charisma can swing either way.

In such a volatile period with a unpopular war, a sagging economy and a very divided political nation, I hope that the next President is elected based on more than looking good on camera and being able to deliver catch phrases to the masses.

I've always maintained that Obama might be a great president (even if he's so left he, would traditionally be, unelectable...) but I cant wait for the nomination to be over so McCain and Obama/Hillary can start standing toe-to-toe and address specifically what their intentions are and the specifics of their platform. Im tired of Obama running on momentum and keeping his "Change Count" high in every speech.

It's interesting--perception is everything, I guess. For me, I don't see an extreme leftist in Obama. I see a charismatic pragmatist who favours Universal Health care, campaign finance reform, the elimination of earmarks, more openness in the White House and a phased withdrawal from Iraq. People may disagree with these ideas--but no-one can say they aren't actual ideas.

In that sense, he's been far more "concrete" than, say, McCain, who has said literally nothing at all about what he'll do if elected. Nor should he--he's currently unopposed, and if I were his advisor I'd tell him to wait until after the convention to start talking policy ideas. But if Obama is to be criticized for not proposing anything specific, McCain should be thrown under the bus.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It's interesting--perception is everything, I guess. For me, I don't see an extreme leftist in Obama. I see a charismatic pragmatist who favours Universal Health care, campaign finance reform, the elimination of earmarks, more openness in the White House and a phased withdrawal from Iraq. People may disagree with these ideas--but no-one can say they aren't actual ideas.

In that sense, he's been far more "concrete" than, say, McCain, who has said literally nothing at all about what he'll do if elected. Nor should he--he's currently unopposed, and if I were his advisor I'd tell him to wait until after the convention to start talking policy ideas. But if Obama is to be criticized for not proposing anything specific, McCain should be thrown under the bus.

Well said.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It's interesting--perception is everything, I guess. For me, I don't see an extreme leftist in Obama. I see a charismatic pragmatist who favours Universal Health care, campaign finance reform, the elimination of earmarks, more openness in the White House and a phased withdrawal from Iraq. People may disagree with these ideas--but no-one can say they aren't actual ideas.

He was voted as the most liberal (and therefore left) Senator recently.

It will be interesting when the on going posturing of primary season can be done away with and candidates are forced to say something with substance... both sides.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

That's kind of my point. Azure is CONVINCED, for reasons known only to himself, that Obama will be a terrible president if he wins. He even compared him to Carter. I'm just pointing out that Reagan is a far more apt comparison.

I also stand by my McCain-Mondale comparison. Which spells trouble for the GOP if that's the matchup.

Convinced?

Hardly....I merely pointed out a similarity between Carter and Obama.

And believe me, I'm not the only one who sees that. Cowperson said the same thing half a year ago, before Obama even started campaigning.

But hey, I MUST be convinced....

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

He was voted as the most liberal (and therefore left) Senator recently.

By who? It makes a difference, because different think tanks use different measures for these things.

I'm not denying that he's a liberal, but he's also a candidate who has shown an ability to appeal to independents and republicans. I have a hard time imagining he's more liberal than Tom Harkin or Ted Kennedy, though.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Convinced?

Hardly

So can I quote you that you're now backpedaling on thinking Obama will be a disaster as president?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

So can I quote you that you're now backpedaling on thinking Obama will be a disaster as president?

Sure go ahead.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sure go ahead.

Well, that's good news--because you've kind of had it in for the guy for a while and I (knowing you to be a reasonable fellow) found that a little puzzling.

Hey, I don't know for a fact that Obama will make a great president--or indeed if he can even win. Dems have a history of screwing both things up in new and exciting ways. I do think it may be a little early to proclaim him "history's greatest monster" though.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Well, that's good news--because you've kind of had it in for the guy for a while and I (knowing you to be a reasonable fellow) found that a little puzzling.

Hey, I don't know for a fact that Obama will make a great president--or indeed if he can even win. Dems have a history of screwing both things up in new and exciting ways. I do think it may be a little early to proclaim him "history's greatest monster" though.

I may have made a mistake in the past with blatantly saying that he'll do a horrible job.

There are good things every President does, along with ALL the bad things.

Obama will do good things......probably lots of them, but I still don't like his platform.

Now is he saying some pretty stupid things just to gain votes, or is he going to be like everyone other politician to get elected POTUS and actually not implement half he says once he gets to the Oval Office?

I really don't know....but one thing about politicians...I don't trust ANY of them. Obama, McCain and 'especially' Hillary.

And just for the record, I don't like ANY of the candidates. So when I complain about Obama, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm complaining because I'm trying to trump up McCain.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

I may have made a mistake in the past with blatantly saying that he'll do a horrible job.

There are good things every President does, along with ALL the bad things.

Obama will do good things......probably lots of them, but I still don't like his platform.

Now is he saying some pretty stupid things just to gain votes, or is he going to be like everyone other politician to get elected POTUS and actually not implement half he says once he gets to the Oval Office?

I really don't know....but one thing about politicians...I don't trust ANY of them. Obama, McCain and 'especially' Hillary.

And just for the record, I don't like ANY of the candidates. So when I complain about Obama, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm complaining because I'm trying to trump up McCain.

Fair enough!

As for your question--basically is Obama "for real," it's hard to be sure. I like him (I think that's plain) but I think his proposals are if anything way too modest and not bold enough.

Health Care is one example--the U.S. Health Care system is in complete disarray. Don't let anyone tell you different. It's a mess. The quality of care is a nightmare in comparison to any developed country, and access to care would be generously described as "uneven." It's a system that needs massive reform--basically they need to blow the whole thing up and start over. What does Obama propose (and Clinton, btw?) In essence, more regulations and more money. Frankly, that's the opposite of what's needed.

On the other hand, I'm no longer sure real reform is even possible, even given the most well-intentioned actors on all sides--so I guess I share your cynicism to a degree.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Health Care is one example--the U.S. Health Care system is in complete disarray. Don't let anyone tell you different. It's a mess. The quality of care is a nightmare in comparison to any developed country, and access to care would be generously described as "uneven." It's a system that needs massive reform--basically they need to blow the whole thing up and start over. What does Obama propose (and Clinton, btw?) In essence, more regulations and more money. Frankly, that's the opposite of what's needed.

If there is one thing the US needs to do with a lot of programs....its to blow them all up and start over again.

Like you said, spending money and trying to fix any of it isn't likely going to work. And Obama wants to spend, Hillary wants to spend, and McCain wants to spend, although not as much as the first two.

Not yet anyways.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

If there is one thing the US needs to do with a lot of programs....its to blow them all up and start over again.

Like you said, spending money and trying to fix any of it isn't likely going to work. And Obama wants to spend, Hillary wants to spend, and McCain wants to spend, although not as much as the first two.

Not yet anyways.

Their approach to entitlement programs has been wrongheaded from the start. As a result, the programs they have are inefficient, costly and bureaucratic. The U.S. Health Care system does less and costs more than the Health Care system in other countries. It's really pretty amazing.

But I don't see it changing any time soon, sadly.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Well said.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

If there is one thing the US needs to do with a lot of programs....its to blow them all up and start over again.

Like you said, spending money and trying to fix any of it isn't likely going to work. And Obama wants to spend, Hillary wants to spend, and McCain wants to spend, although not as much as the first two.

Not yet anyways.

I find it interesting how the future of social security has completely left the 'hall of issues'. Pretty important problem, has been for years, and nobody has dealt with it. We used to hear about it quite a bit 6-10 years ago but it seems that health care has completely surpassed it on the social issue leaderboard along with other 'important' issues like gay marriage and abortion.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I find it interesting how the future of social security has completely left the 'hall of issues'. Pretty important problem, has been for years, and nobody has dealt with it. We used to hear about it quite a bit 6-10 years ago but it seems that health care has completely surpassed it on the social issue leaderboard along with other 'important' issues like gay marriage and abortion.

Personally, I think it's because it's a thorny problem and nobody has any answers that the public likes. So they stick with the one thing everyone agrees won't work, which is the status quo.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I find it interesting how the future of social security has completely left the 'hall of issues'. Pretty important problem, has been for years, and nobody has dealt with it. We used to hear about it quite a bit 6-10 years ago but it seems that health care has completely surpassed it on the social issue leaderboard along with other 'important' issues like gay marriage and abortion.

It's all about mobilizing the base. Certain issues bring the voters out from each side. For the Republicans it's the incredibly "important" issues that directly impact everyone, like illegal immigrats, gay marriage and abortion. For Democrats its issues that impact just a small minority, like social security and the economy. It has been extremely important for the "important" issues to be pushed to the forefront, because they appeal those that will provide the "mandate" to continue the status quo on those other fringe issues, which is where all the big money is made in America and where changes would impact the elites who desire no changes that would recreate the middle class.