Blu-ray Vs. HD DVD not as close as expected... (Official- HD-DVD Dead)

[ernie]

I've mentioned it before but do not underestimate the power the fabs have in this. They do not want to change technologies but if they do they much prefer HD-DVD becuase it can be retrofit into the current DVD technology which is far cheaper. For Blu-Ray they have to replace entire production trains and not only that they have to replace the productions trains with one that has a larger footprint. It is something that may come to the forefront if the formats start to gain any sort of acceptance, which they haven't yet.

The attach rate for HD-DVD is still higher at this point. Blu-ray may be winnning a battle here or there but the war isn't won....if it can even be called a war at this point. Well I suppose it is but it isn't really a war that matters right now.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by ernie

I've mentioned it before but do not underestimate the power the fabs have in this. They do not want to change technologies but if they do they much prefer HD-DVD becuase it can be retrofit into the current DVD technology which is far cheaper. For Blu-Ray they have to replace entire production trains and not only that they have to replace the productions trains with one that has a larger footprint. It is something that may come to the forefront if the formats start to gain any sort of acceptance, which they haven't yet.

The attach rate for HD-DVD is still higher at this point. Blu-ray may be winnning a battle here or there but the war isn't won....if it can even be called a war at this point. Well I suppose it is but it isn't really a war that matters right now.

If we as consumers are not seeing the benefits of the reduced cost to the fabs in disc savings, then it will do nothing for attach rate. If retro-fitting old equipment does save them money as you claim, HD-DVD's should be selling at a $25 or $30 price point, instead of being equivalent to the blu-ray at $35.

In my opinion, the side that can get their discs down to $25 a movie like DVD's will come out ahead.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Regorium

If we as consumers are not seeing the benefits of the reduced cost to the fabs in disc savings, then it will do nothing for attach rate. If retro-fitting old equipment does save them money as you claim, HD-DVD's should be selling at a $25 or $30 price point, instead of being equivalent to the blu-ray at $35.

In my opinion, the side that can get their discs down to $25 a movie like DVD's will come out ahead.

I have about 25 blu ray discs and my average cost for them have been around $13.

And i think going from 480 lines of resolution to 1080 lines is pretty significant. Like going from 240 lines for a VHS tape to 480 lines for a regular dvd. People who can't notice the difference do not have the right equipment, or did not set it up properly.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by SarichFan

I have both formats and Think Blu-Ray will win based on library and Visual quality. Transformers HD-DVD is really nice but Spiderman 3 blows it away visually.

I think some of the picture quality difference is because the XBox 360 HD-DVD attachment doesnt go up to 1080p, while the PS3 does.

The one thing I find a little weird about HD-DVD is that not all of them go up to true HD quality...a lot of the cheaper models that people are buying don't support 1080p...which is sort of the whole point of the upgrade imo.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I think some of the picture quality difference is because the XBox 360 HD-DVD attachment doesnt go up to 1080p, while the PS3 does.

Is that a player limitation? New Xboxes have HDMI, and a while ago Microsoft issued a software update to enable 1080p on the 360.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Regorium

If we as consumers are not seeing the benefits of the reduced cost to the fabs in disc savings, then it will do nothing for attach rate. If retro-fitting old equipment does save them money as you claim, HD-DVD's should be selling at a $25 or $30 price point, instead of being equivalent to the blu-ray at $35.

In my opinion, the side that can get their discs down to $25 a movie like DVD's will come out ahead.

Ignoring capital expenditures, the per disc cost for either format is as low as regular DVD from what I've read. There is a big difference in capital expenditures between the two technologies. Ultimately that may not matter if Blu-ray grabs a hold of the market. That is the entire movie buying market not just the high def market as maunfacturers will put out the expense of changing over the fabs. But if it continues to essentially stall versus normal DVD they will be loathe to lose regular DVD production trains creating a potential bottleneck which can kill a technology. On the other hand, from what I've read HD-DVD and normal DVD can be manufactured on the same production train so a fab would ultimately not lose any DVD output capacity if high def never takes off.

So many permutations and combinations on what can happen at this stage. Certainly a 2:1 edge in movie sales is promising for Blu-ray, but HD-DVD can argue attachment rate data and other things.

It comes down to what it always will come down...when will the public care enough to decide this supposed war? Will they ever care enough? And when they do care enough is the easiest solution simply to have both formats?

[Josh]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

In a biased way, I want Blu-ray to win, just because I'll be buying PS3 regardless of which one wins. But in the end, it won't really matter that much to me, as worst case scenario, I'll buy an HD DVD player to along with my PS3. No biggie.

This is exactly what I've done. I'm very happy with my PS3/HD-A3 combo.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

People who can't notice the difference do not have the right equipment, or did not set it up properly.

It's not so much noticing the difference, it's noticing that it's not much of a difference.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

It's not so much noticing the difference, it's noticing that it's not much of a difference.

really? i find that hard to believe. are you sure you haven't seen it on 720p?

Can you notice the difference on TSN HD and regular TSN?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Is that a player limitation? New Xboxes have HDMI, and a while ago Microsoft issued a software update to enable 1080p on the 360.

ah, i didnt know those were out now! good to hear.

[automaton 3]

^^^ I was over at a buddy's place last weekend who just bought a 1080 plasma tv and an HD-DVD player. He rented a movie (can't remember which one) in both SD and HD formats just to compare.

The HD-DVD certainly looked better, but surprisingly not by much. Pretty disappointing really compared to what we were expecting. The up-convert feature on his HD-DVD really does work pretty well.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

^^^ I was over at a buddy's place last weekend who just bought a 1080 plasma tv and an HD-DVD player. He rented a movie (can't remember which one) in both SD and HD formats just to compare.

The HD-DVD certainly looked better, but surprisingly not by much. Pretty disappointing really compared to what we were expecting. The up-convert feature on his HD-DVD really does work pretty well.

You can't remember which movie? but you watched it twice. haha.

Unless he spent more then $400 on his hd dvd player you were prob watching it on 1080i and not 1080p.

[SeeGeeWhy]

I had to do a paper on this "battle" for a strategic management class this semester.

Blu Ray and HD-DVD are very close in all aspects except for cost to the consumer - HD DVD still has an advantage there - and production line costs - HD DVD is a bit cheaper than Blu Ray for now.

As for performance between HD-DVD and Blu Ray, all of the discs are recorded in native 1080p density, but not all of the players are capable of outputting at true 1080p resolution right now. Even some of the early blu ray players used a second processing chip to upgrade the signal that was coming from the main chip.

A good link to read up on the differences is found here: http://www.digital-digest.com/highdefdvd/faq.html#faq601

The big problem that we discovered is that both Toshiba and Sony are missing out on making HD DVD profitable as a technology by fighting so hard to establish their own format over the other. They are getting greedy over production royalties and it is hurting the chances of making HD DVD viable project all together.

The incumbent (standard def DVD) is a VERY good technology that most people are satisfied with. As such the majority of people are not rushing out to go buy an HD player, even if they have an HDTV, because they want to see who is going to win the format war before they make a choice.

Basically, this "war" is extending the life of SD DVD, and accelerating the maturation of a replacement technology - HD programming and movies over IP.

By the time they sort this out, your HD DVD player will be a secondary component to your High bandwidth PVR that can store hours of movies, and will likely be able to accept movies from removable flash disks.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

You can't remember which movie? but you watched it twice. haha.

Unless he spent more then $400 on his hd dvd player you were prob watching it on 1080i and not 1080p.

There's no difference between 1080i and 1080p unless the TV doesn't deinterlace properly (which not all do).

http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoff...061080iv1080p/

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

really? i find that hard to believe. are you sure you haven't seen it on 720p?

Can you notice the difference on TSN HD and regular TSN?

Admittedly, my TV is a native 720p DLP. And my HD-DVD player upconverts the DVDs. When I compared my copy of the Matrix from the ultimate DVD collection to the HD-DVD copy, there was a slight difference in that more fine detail was visible on the HD-DVD version. Again, not a very big difference. I would expect to notice more of a difference on a suitably sized native 1080p set since my HD-DVD player does handle 1080p.

The difference is much, much more noticeable on broadcasts of course. 720p TSN HD looks tons better than stretched 480i TSN largely due to the aspect ratio. Even comparing proper 4:3 SD TSn to HD TSN shows a very noticeable difference.

But I don't think likening SD broadcasts to HD broadcasts as a comparison for comparing DVD to HD-DVD/Bluray is valid. Seems like comparing apples and oranges to me, personally.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

Admittedly, my TV is a native 720p DLP. And my HD-DVD player upconverts the DVDs. When I compared my copy of the Matrix from the ultimate DVD collection to the HD-DVD copy, there was a slight difference in that more fine detail was visible on the HD-DVD version. Again, not a very big difference. I would expect to notice more of a difference on a suitably sized native 1080p set since my HD-DVD player does handle 1080p.

The difference is much, much more noticeable on broadcasts of course. 720p TSN HD looks tons better than stretched 480i TSN.

But I don't likening SD broadcasts to HD broadcasts as a comparison for comparing DVD to HD-DVD/Bluray is valid. Seems like comparing apples and ornages to me, personally.

Well you can't really make a true comparison when you are comparing regular dvds upconverted to 720, to blu ray or hd dvds running at 720 and not 1080?

Plus DLPs is kinda dated now compared to the new lcds out there.

[photon]

On my 720p projector the difference between upconverted DVDs and HD movies is still night and day in my eyes.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

Well you can't really make a true comparison when you are comparing regular dvds upconverted to 720, to blu ray or hd dvds running at 720 and not 1080?

Plus DLPs is kinda dated now compared to the new lcds out there.

But I truly compared them! Yeah, I know it's not an ideal experience, but it's the best I can do with my personal set-up. For that matter, the Matrix DVD has a great transfer to boot. I imagine comparing a "lesser" DVD to it's HD counterpart in either format would make a difference too.

And don't make me sad about DLP, you bad man you.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

But I truly compared them! Yeah, I know it's not an ideal experience, but it's the best I can do with my personal set-up.

And don't make me sad about DLP.

Thats ok. i have the worlds oldest hd ready tv in the world. My sony 4X3 53inch crt projection which was like $5000 new. hehe. It's great for video games though.

But seriously go check out a blu ray on the new Sony bravia at the sony store. You'd be impressed.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

Thats ok. i have the worlds oldest hd ready tv in the world. My sony 4X3 53inch crt projection which was like $5000 new. hehe. It's great for video games though.

But seriously go check out a blu ray on the new Sony bravia at the sony store. You'd be impressed.

No more impressed than an HD-DVD running through a Bravia.....