Photo fraud; Reutergate et.al.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

So I guess that means Hezbollah staging or propping their images to generate empathy for their cause is expected too then?

I never said that.

Psyops has a history of doing such things, it is their 'job.' Hezbollah is merely doing what they did to look good, or to look 'not as bad.'

Very poor comparison IMO.

these activities are not a form of force, but are force multipliers that use nonviolent means in often violent environments. Persuading rather than compelling physically, they rely on logic, fear, desire or other mental factors to promote specific emotions, attitudes or behaviors. The ultimate objective of U.S. military psychological operations and civil affairs is to convince enemy, neutral, and friendly nations and forces to take action favorable to the United States and its allies.

http://www.psywarrior.com/psyop.html

I can't believe that you guys are suprised that they staged the toppling of the statue.....it was to be expected.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Azure

I never said that.

Psyops has a history of doing such things, it is their 'job.' Hezbollah is merely doing what they did to look good, or to look 'not as bad.'

Very poor comparison IMO.

Its EXACTLY the same thing! Just because Hezbollah doesn't have a division called "Psy Ops" doesn't make it any different than the US...

Hezbollah stages, handles photographers/media in order to generate goodwill to their cause. How is that any different than the US military doing the same thing to convince the public that Saddam was hated by everyone in Iraq?

As for the surprise about the statue, not surprised here; any government that inflates rhetoric, tailors the intelligence to suit a certain goal, and labels people that question them as anti-americans is capable of anything...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Hezbollah stages, handles photographers/media in order to generate goodwill to their cause. How is that any different than the US military doing the same thing to convince the public that Saddam was hated by everyone in Iraq?

You needed to be convinced that Saddam was a hated man? He may have had the ability to retain power through powerful means, but don't you think people would hate him for it?

BTW, if the action was preformed by a highly trained Pys-ops unit, why would they make the blunder with the American flag? And don't give me the "they didn't know any better" BS.

Its EXACTLY the same thing! Just because Hezbollah doesn't have a division called "Psy Ops" doesn't make it any different than the US...

Actually yes it does.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

You needed to be convinced that Saddam was a hated man? He may have had the ability to retain power through powerful means, but don't you think people would hate him for it?

George Bush is a hated man too. WTF is you point? Hussein managed to hold a country together that most didn't think was possible. Right or wrong, he did it. That's more than can be said for the bang up job the United States is doing "installing democracy".

BTW, if the action was preformed by a highly trained Pys-ops unit, why would they make the blunder with the American flag? And don't give me the "they didn't know any better" BS.

Give me a break. Why would they do that? To show that America was willing to work with the locals and bend to the will of the people. The symbolic nature of the American flag being thrust over his face was obvious. The subtle aspect was the removal of the flag and the Iraqi flag being placed over his face. The message was that America defeated Saddam, and Iraq still stands, but the United States is still running the show behind the Iraqi scenes. That was no mistake, that was 100% staged (I said that when it happened) and everything was planned out.

Actually yes it does.

And why is that? You're going to have to explain that one. Only countries get to have psyops units or run psyops? Or only those that you choose get to have that honor? Face it, anyone that has the knowledge and the ability can run a psyop. Anyone. WTF do you think terrorism is? Its an operation to inflict psychological damage on the enemy or the citizens who support that enemy. What do you think the Berg beheading was? Jesus, its like talking to a high school kid! Oh, wait... !

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Azure

You needed to be convinced that Saddam was a hated man? He may have had the ability to retain power through powerful means, but don't you think people would hate him for it?

Someone in the chain of command thought that staging that scene was necessary...you tell me why they needed to stage it then?

Originally Posted by Azure

BTW, if the action was preformed by a highly trained Pys-ops unit, why would they make the blunder with the American flag? And don't give me the "they didn't know any better" BS.

you tell me. I never talked about Pys Ops: you did. You're the one that mentioned Pys-ops and how this is what they do.

Originally Posted by Azure

Actually yes it does.

Because? They have a division called 'Pys-ops' that legitimizes it? A free, democratically elected government staging a scene to convince the American people that they were right to go into Iraq? Compared to evil terrorists staging photos?

You tell me which is worse.

[Azure]

George Bush is a hated man too. WTF is you point? Hussein managed to hold a country together that most didn't think was possible. Right or wrong, he did it. That's more than can be said for the bang up job the United States is doing "installing democracy".

My point? That you don't need to stage something like this in order to prove that Saddam was a hated man...

Give me a break. Why would they do that? To show that America was willing to work with the locals and bend to the will of the people. The symbolic nature of the American flag being thrust over his face was obvious. The subtle aspect was the removal of the flag and the Iraqi flag being placed over his face. The message was that America defeated Saddam, and Iraq still stands, but the United States is still running the show behind the Iraqi scenes. That was no mistake, that was 100% staged (I said that when it happened) and everything was planned out.

Even the guys at BBC said that placing the American flag there was a mistake....which makes me wonder why Psy-ops, as highly trained in the physcological aspect as they are, would do something like that.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Azure

BTW, if the action was preformed by a highly trained Pys-ops unit, why would they make the blunder with the American flag? And don't give me the "they didn't know any better" BS.

Highly trained means mistake-free? First I've ever heard of that.

Originally Posted by Azure

Actually yes it does.

What's the difference? That they admit they are doing it?

The actions are similar if not the same. The tactics are similar if not the same. It doesn't make either action any more justifiable or different than the other. Both ways, the media is painting a scripted picture.

[Azure]

Highly trained means mistake-free? First I've ever heard of that.

Good point.

What's the difference? That they admit they are doing it?

The actions are similar if not the same. The tactics are similar if not the same. It doesn't make either action any more justifiable or different than the other. Both ways, the media is painting a scripted picture.

Fair enough.

My initial comparison based on pysops and the Reuter guy photoshopping pictures.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

My point? That you don't need to stage something like this in order to prove that Saddam was a hated man...

To sell it to the rest of the world, not in Iraq. America was to be seen as a liberator and welcomed to the country as such, not the invader they have turned out to be.

Even the guys at BBC said that placing the American flag there was a mistake....which makes me wonder why Psy-ops, as highly trained in the physcological aspect as they are, would do something like that.

I explained that. Re-read it.

[Azure]

To sell it to the rest of the world, not in Iraq. America was to be seen as a liberator and welcomed to the country as such, not the invader they have turned out to be.

Then maybe my point holds true, when I originally said that the Iraqi people didn't need the statue to fulfill their hatred in Saddam.

I explained that. Re-read it.

I did. Interesting.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Better produce that Mr. "Game Tape". Reminds me of the time you swore up and down that you were getting games over in Japan, but were exposed as the liar you are. Then you tried to say you were getting game tapes, and I called you on that saying it was an impossibility to have that done as no one has the time or resources to do so. Then you changed your story again and tried to say it was BOA games only. So when I challenged you and said I would pay to have you send me one of those tapes to prove your story, you changed your story yet again (don't forget I have the PM's to prove all of this).

Lanny,

Again.....

The goal post moving argument.

A: Lanny you called me a liar for saying that I saw games LIVE. I challenged you to show where I said that or apologise. You couldn't since I never said that and you couldn't prove that I said that. You then in typical Lanny-juvy-argument moved the goalposts. Somehow I was now required to prove that I had tapes now.

Why in the world would I send tapes to a complete stranger just to prove that I had them? I could careless whether you believe that I had them or not. That wasn't the original argument.

So please start a new thread Lanny and bring out those PMs.....I have them too.

My favourite is still your message to me that asked the question something like this.... "Why (insert swears) anyone would send an (swear)Oiler fan like me a Calgary game."

My answer to you....what was it? Ah.....BOA. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

I only ask that people look past their entrenched views to see that both sides do similar things...

The Reuters photographer is an idiot - but I certainly wouldn't paint all media as being biased towards Hezbollah because of that one incident.

I only have a slight disagreement with your post here.

Both sides do similar things. Well try to get their point of view out through media relations people (aka propoganda people) I agree. But the similarities stop there.

We don't have country A versus country B here. We have terrorist group A versus Country A. One is a death cult that revels in showing off dead bodies (their's and their enemies') to TV crews/ photographers all the while hiding it's arsenal amoungst civilians. This to do one of 2 things. Make the Israelis withold fire or create a media sensation of civilian killings. The other is a country that was attacked and had it's soldiers murdered and kidnapped unprovoked. A country that fought with one arm tied behind it's back.

As for the media. I think AP and Reuters have forgotten their objectivity in the persuit of profit. Making nice with Hezbollah to get those all important sensational pictures. I think NYT, CNN, BBC and other such news sources are guilty of this to a lesser degree.