Rumor Control: Fidel Castro had died

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Communism in its pure form is a great system, if all the people abide by it. However, there is no incentive to work, as most people look for individual gain, something that capitalism, not communism can provide.?

I am glad to see you have recended you view that Communism is evil, and gone to a much more practical and truthful stance, saying it is SOME of the people that have governed under this banner that re evil. Was Lenin evil?

Originally Posted by Azure

BTW, I did say both sides of the spectrum can be evil, didn't you notice

I did notice, sounds like your changing your tune. You have agreed with my main point here, and for that I am thankful.

Originally Posted by Azure

All Facist, a political ideology completly opposite of communism. Stalin and Mao were communist, and each killed at least 60 million people.

Thanks Tips.........

[Hakan]

Well, I would argue in its pure form it is a savior. An impressive savior. However, lately capitalism seems to be one of the more abused set of ideas floating around.

Well I would argue that communism in its pure form is a saviour as well. Sure capitalism in its pure form of voluntary exchanges with perfect information sharing and no market manipulation is great.

But so is being able to fly and having laser vision.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

Dude, how are you a conservative in any way? A good conservative knows this stuff.

No, a GOOD conservative knows more than just the bull**** talking points that are flogged out there by people trying to protect their turf. A GOOD conservative is willing to acknowledge the strengths of other systems and use those strengths to modify his way for the betterment of the cause. That is why the conservative movement is headed in the wrong direction by allowing those with religiosity to drive the movement.

Capitalism is a very open system where moral flexibility is a strength, so it is more open to abuses. Communism is not quite so open, so the abuses are not as apparent. Communism was a great idea, and in a vaccuum would likely be an extremely successful ideology, but we don't live in a vaccuum, no matter how much life sucks. This is why Communism fails, as the human animal, like all others, normally competes for the best it can do.

[Azure]

I am glad to see you have recended you view that Communism is evil, and gone to a much more practical and truthful stance, saying it is SOME of the people that have governed under this banner that re evil. Was Lenin evil?

I haven't recended my view. I STILL think that communism is evil, because that system that the Soviet Union had is the closest the world will ever get.

Marx was dreaming when he thought his theory would work.

I did notice, sounds like your changing your tune. You have agreed with my main point here, and for that I am thankful.

Thanks Tips.........

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

No, a GOOD conservative knows more than just the bull**** talking points that are flogged out there by people trying to protect their turf. A GOOD conservative is willing to acknowledge the strengths of other systems and use those strengths to modify his way for the betterment of the cause. That is why the conservative movement is headed in the wrong direction by allowing those with religiosity to drive the movement.

Capitalism is a very open system where moral flexibility is a strength, so it is more open to abuses. Communism is not quite so open, so the abuses are not as apparent. Communism was a great idea, and in a vaccuum would likely be an extremely successful ideology, but we don't live in a vaccuum, no matter how much life sucks. This is why Communism fails, as the human animal, like all others, normally competes for the best it can do.

Well thank you for coming out and saying so. You do have multiple personalities, don't you?

In your present personality, I tend to agree with you. I am a strong democrat, as long as something works I tend to listen.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

I haven't recended my view. I STILL think that communism is evil, because that system that the Soviet Union had is the closest the world will ever get.

Marx was dreaming when he thought his theory would work.

Good retort......

So then the Lenin, and his ideology Leninism was Evil? Please explain.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Good retort......

So then the Lenin, and his ideology Leninism was Evil? Please explain.

Wasn't he the one that overthrew the Tsar and killed a bunch of innocent people on Bloody Sunday, or whatever its called?

Didn't Lenin turn to privitization because the Soviet Union was failing in meeting the needs of its people?

[Hakan]

Lenin was damn evil. Of that, there is no question.

Don't believe me? Read a book.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

And that side can be taken from power by the people. The other could hold rule for 100's of years.

Bull****. Politics is for the elites on both sides of the fence. It doesn't matter how many times we have elections here in America, its all a dog and pony show to make the people feel like they are doing their civic duty. No one in America "grows up" to be President any more. You need tens of millions of dollars to run for office and you have to know the right people and be from the right blood lines. The people don't have a chance "of taking anyone from power" on either side.

For the lecture you gave a couple days ago on your political views, you sure seem to diagree with them here.

How am I disagreeing with them? Where exactly am I saying anything that could be construed as conflict with my own beliefs? I am discussing the differences between two different systems. Have I commented directly on issues? Nope, just ideology.

Now Azure, can you please face south when you post. It is hot as balls down here and we need as much air movement as possible. With the amount of arm waving you do you are sure to build up a faily stiff breeze in no time and help cool us poor Arizonans off.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Lenin was damn evil. Of that, there is no question.

Don't believe me? Read a book.

Yeah, which book?

I think there is 10's of millions of Russians who would tend to disagree with you.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well thank you for coming out and saying so. You do have multiple personalities, don't you?

Nope, just use more of my brain than most people. You can discuss issues, acknowledge the strengths of other systems, and not change your beliefs. I can say that I have an understand of the homosexual lifestyle, it doesn't mean that I've changed teams.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

..

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Yeah, which book?

I think there is 10's of millions of Russians who would tend to disagree with you.

Violently forcing a totalitarian system of rule on an unwilling people which ended up killing over a million people is not evil?

And please don't use the 'you have to break a couple eggs to make an omelette' argument.

[White Doors]

Communism has resulted in the deaths of millions of it's very citizens:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

Democracy offers the checks and balances to check that power much better than any other system - this is why it is the best there is.

Individual rights and freedoms are the tenants of successfull societies, this has been proved over and over and over but STILL people are willing to give communism a chance.

Constructing this utopia was seen as though a war on poverty, exploitation, imperialism, and inequality. And for the greater good, as in a real war, people are killed. And thus this war for the communist utopia had its necessary enemy casualties, the clergy, bourgeoisie, capitalists, wreckers, counterrevolutionaries, rightists, tyrants, rich, landlords, and noncombatants that unfortunately got caught in the battle. In a war millions may die, but the cause may be well justified, as in the defeat of Hitler and an utterly racist Nazism. And to many communists, the cause of a communist utopia was such as to justify all the deaths. The irony of this is that communism in practice, even after decades of total control, did not improve the lot of the average person, but usually made their living conditions worse than before the revolution. It is not by chance that the greatest famines have occurred within the Soviet Union (about 5,000,000 dead during 1921-23 and 7,000,000 from 1932-3) and communist China (about 27,000,000 dead from 1959-61). In total almost 55,000,000 people died in various communist famines and associated diseases, a little over 10,000,000 of them from democidal famine. This is as though the total population of Turkey, Iran, or Thailand had been completely wiped out. And that something like 35,000,000 people fled communist countries as refugees, as though the countries of Argentina or Columbia had been totally emptied of all their people, was an unparalleled vote against the utopian pretensions of Marxism-Leninism.

As well, Marx SHOULD have known this as all he had to do was study history and look at the history of Kings and emporers to see what absolute power does to the people that wield it.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Violently forcing a totalitarian system of rule on an unwilling people which ended up killing over a million people is not evil?

And please don't use the 'you have to break a couple eggs to make an omelette' argument.

By that logic George Washington is just as evil.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

By that logic George Washington is just as evil.

George Washington revolted against an unaccountable government in far off Great Britain! He had the people on his side and installed a democractic, accountable government!

My GAWD!

You are truly delusional

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by White Doors

George Washington revolted against an unaccountable government in far off Great Britain! He had the people on his side and installed a democractic, accountable government!

My GAWD!

You are truly delusional

Im delusional......You think the tsarist regime is the former USSR was accountable, or had support from the people!!! HA

The only people they had the support of were the rich noble class(similar to the British Loyalists in America during the revolution) that were getting fat off the working mans hard work. Lenin and Washington are VERY comparable, they are BOTH HEROES.

Read up on your USSR history, cleary you know nothing of the situation that Lenin ended with the Bolshevik Revolution.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Im delusional......You think the tsarist regime is the former USSR was accountable, or had support from the people!!! HA

The only people they had the support of were the rich noble class(similar to the British Loyalists in America during the revolution) that were getting fat off the working mans hard work. Lenin and Washington are VERY comparable, they are BOTH HEROES.

Read up on your USSR history, cleary you know nothing of the situation that Lenin ended with the Bolshevik Revolution.

You think George freaking Washington and LENIN are on the same moral plane? That's called deulsional. You are intentionally deluding yourself to make your ideology and moral equivelancy work.

I thought I was on your ignore list? Where did I say the Tsar regime was good? I didn't. In fact, I said that kingdom's and empires of our history should have shown Marx that absolute power is a bad idea.

Take a reading comprehension class.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Im delusional......You think the tsarist regime is the former USSR was accountable, or had support from the people!!! HA

The only people they had the support of were the rich noble class(similar to the British Loyalists in America during the revolution) that were getting fat off the working mans hard work. Lenin and Washington are VERY comparable, they are BOTH HEROES.

Read up on your USSR history, cleary you know nothing of the situation that Lenin ended with the Bolshevik Revolution.

You should read up on the history of Russia.

Far be it from you to understand that under Alexander II, the Romanovs instituted free schooling for the serfs and severely limited the punishment that land owners could take on them. Later into his rule, he made the first policies of land purchase of serfs and abolition of serfdom. This did not go as well as everyone hoped but it was a very important first step.

Things were getting much much better for the serfs in Russia under the Tsars. The Russian economy was actually doing quite well by this point with much growth in textiles and industry under the Tsars. More importantly by the time of Nicholas II emancipated serfs were finally beginning to buy their own farms and be productive.

What happened when Lenin took charge? Their farms that they had worked so hard for were taken away. If they did not support the Red Army they were butchered, often by the entire village. After the civil war widespread starvation kicked in.

Of course the official history is that it was a terrible bleak existence for the Russian peasants. But then only an amateur historian would believe the official version without doing some of their own research first.

You see, I'm not against the idea of communism. I am against Leninism because it's a thinly veiled totalitarian state wrapped in the niceties of marxist rhetoric. There is a reason why Marx said that communism would not work in Russia, because it would not work. The Bolsheviks proved that the very agrarian economy of Russia was the exact circumstances to poorly implement collective ownership.

Lenin was a power hungry despot who knew that he had to make a move to usurp power as things were going relatively well in Russia. He used anti-war sentiment more than economic depravity to win over the masses in the cities. After the Tsars were hunted down and murdered and their followers murdered as well did Lenin's true evil visage finally come to view for the supporters.

Read a book by Zamyatin or any of the new research that has been written on Lenin for corroboration.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by White Doors

George Washington revolted against an unaccountable government in far off Great Britain! He had the people on his side and installed a democractic, accountable government!

My GAWD!

You are truly delusional

Well by saying this (above) your clearly inferring that tsarist regime was a)accountable, b)had the people on their side............WRONG ON BOTH .............thanks for trying bud

You were on my ignore list, but when i saw you came back to the thread, I had to take you off, at least temporarily, I need some enjoyment @ work today, and a clown like you delivers on that promise 10/10 times.

You and Azure are similar in so many ways.........like him you say things like "your delusional" but yet dont give ANY fact to back up wh that may be the case. Why should Lenin be respected any less the Washington?

"reading comprehension course" I recall saying that yesterday on this very forum.........who did i say it to?? hmmmmmmmm, i wonder