[PGT] Wild defeat Flames 2-0, Nov. 9th

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Regarding Backlund, I think after the contract was signed, you don't have to look that hard to see that Backlund's priority is about his Flames legacy and less about chasing cups. He came into the season 150 odd games behind Iginla for most games played as a Calgary Flame. That obviously means something to him and was given the 2 year extension to make it a reality.

If you ask me, I think that is clearly something the management group could get behind as it is a story that gives the franchise and fans something to look forward to as they are near rock bottom.

I also see him as the right kind of captain for a rebuilding team. Passionate about the organization so he can instill some Flames love in young players, has seen the ups and downs so has a lot of perspective to offer, solid work ethic, seemingly a good teacher and clearly cares about young players, with the kind of long experience that easily gets respect.

You can't buy or draft that.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I just don't know what else to say to people on this subject. Read my post again, that you quoted - there is information in there.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Your main point was already patiently and sufficiently addressed, I think.

Instead of rumours, hearsay, and what the Flames didn’t do, it seems way more reasonable to judge the Flames on what they did do, and listen to the stories management and players tell about these situations after the fact, instead of holding on to incomplete or untrue rumours as your source of truth.

Bitching about trying to sign Hanifin is also just flat out bizarre. The best move for the rebuild and the franchise with Hanifin was to try to sign the 27 year old to a long term contract. That is why he is basically the only one that Conroy actively tried to sign. Only when that could not be accomplished did he not sign him and was forced to trade him. That is because it always made more sense for the rebuild to have him than to receive what you would in a trade.

The list of vets that the complainers never cite that Conroy did not try to re-sign is - Toffoli, Tanev, Mangiapane, Zadorov, Kuzmenko. 5 players.

The one he could not because he traded him before he could even negotiate with is Markstrom.

The one he gave an offer to that was below market was Lindholm.

Conroy tries to sign one out of eight veterans he traded and a bunch of posters are like “he tried to sign all of them” LOL.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Itse

I also see him as the right kind of captain for a rebuilding team. Passionate about the organization so he can instill some Flames love in young players, has seen the ups and downs so has a lot of perspective to offer, solid work ethic, seemingly a good teacher and clearly cares about young players, with the kind of long experience that easily gets respect.

You can't buy or draft that.

100% this.

You have to ice a team. You have to have some vets or you will never hit the floor. And trading Backlund isn't going to change the rebuild in any significant way - what would they get for him a 2nd? Maybe a 2nd and a 3rd? Then they would have to go spend money on UFAs to hit the floor anyway.

But most importantly: you have to have a captain and a face of the franchise. People need to remember that they aren't the only fans, and there are kids out there who look up to the players. Backlund is the perfect captain for now.

[Heavy Jack]

What motivates Backlund now is loyalty and longevity with one organization, I think he more than anyone knows the next couple of years aren’t likely to be winning ones but he can help usher in the next group of players that will push us back into a contending window. His track record with young players speaks for itself, just look at how Honzek has been playing this year, hardly cheats the game and plays it the right way, you’d be lying to urself if you didn’t think a large part of that progression cant be attributed to playing with Backs. The only mistake we made with Backlund’s captaincy was not naming him captain immediately after Gio’s departure.

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, Backlund's ability to help young players develop cannot be over-stated. That in itself is worth more than whatever they might get in return for moving him.

[The EBUG's EBUG]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

With any coach, this is a problem that is i have. I understand making a young players learn the defensive side of the game, and that's important. There was a coach that forced OV to learn defense, 5 years into his career, and he benefited greatly from the instruction.

What is don't get, is making a player fit a role to which they are not physically suited. Or forcing a system that guts your best players.

....

I'm not sure if Klapka, zary, Sharangovich or farabee are being used effectively. Or if they are learning anything. Fababee should be playing down and the others up, but that may be sorted out through trades at some point.

Totally agree with this.

I'm alright with the losing games because long term I think that this is the way forward to actually building a team that can compete. The thing that's actively starting to scare me is that this coaching staff seems to not understand what to do with basically half the roster, and as a result seem to be alienating a lot of the "kids". You got guys bouncing all over the lineup and I don't think it's a hot take to suggest that stuff like Sharangovich and Zary taking turns as the 4C was never part of some development roadmap before the year.

Management and coaching need to get on the same page about what they're trying to get out of this season because right now what Huska and his team are doing is seemingly trying to plug out wins at the expense of basically every young guy who might tangibly be part of the future. This checks with what we've been hearing from inside the room about there being frustrations from the youth about double standards and such. Quick audit of some of the 25 and under players and I think it's genuinely hard to say that they've had their best developmental interests in mind so far and for a lot of these guys I'm genuinely not sure what they're trying to turn them into.

Zary - Started on his return from injury last year banished to the bottom 6 after being good pre injury higher in the lineup, contract took all summer, no look at centre through camp, has played in basically every position on every line and healthied so far, his agent has to be livid at everybody right now, looked like an easy top 6 guy of the future, now looks like he might be that for the Zurich Lions or something.

Coronato - Healthy scratched, current high shot volume low danger system does not seem conducive to his style of play at all (granted it worked last year), looks miserable, has been bad.

Klapka - Inexplicably seems to have a ton of rope. Seems more in line with how they're hoping to play but I'm not really sure the ceiling of a guy like this other than a fun Bottom 6 guy who can fill in higher in a pinch.

Honzek - Sent down to start the year, now riding with the babysitters and looks solid. Not sure the ceiling here either but seems like a poor man's Joel Armia type so he'll probably get into like 700 games as a solid bottom 6 guy.

Farabee - No huge issues with this guy as it seems like this is that he's going to be, a middle 6 guy who can show flashes of skill and has some versatility. Issue here is we have like 7 guys that you could be describing as that.

Bahl - He's fine, don't love that he's glued to Andersson but that's a different problem (see player below).

Parekh - No consistent partner, had him playing his off side a couple times, trying to shelter him but seemingly always ending up with him on the ice with the 4th line, on and off the PP but limited in the top group, guy should probably be in the AHL so it sucks that he can't be there yet but if I were actively trying to kill a kid's confidence this is how I would be doing it.

Kuznetsov - Depressingly might turn into a top 3 story for the year, looks like a player. Bit of a chicken and egg argument here but it's frustrating to me that this guy walks into the lineup and looks completely fine and yet it took them 226 AHL games to get him into his 2nd NHL game. I'm all for letting guys develop but we fully had this guy on waivers earlier in the year, what was the holdup getting him into the lineup? Why were we risking him to protect Miromanov/Bean/etc?

Kerins - 13 points in 10 AHL games, solid camp, banished to Narnia, regardless of your thoughts on his cameo last year I just don't understand how this guy hasn't earned even a tiny look this year on this anemic offense.

Morton* (26 but still) - 11 points in 12 AHL games, solid camp, sent down. This one baffles me because he's 26, so at this point you need to know if he's gonna make it or not, cause it's somewhat now or never and that 4C spot makes so much sense. Wild to me that we're rolling Kirkland out there who they seemingly cannot play over 10 mins a night or a guy like Sharangovich who they have to have someone take faceoffs for and change, but this guy is just down there hanging out and seems to check a ton of boxes.

Wolf - Getting hung out to dry.

Now this isn't all on the coaching staff obviously, several of these guys need to shoulder some if not most of the blame. But it shows an alarming trend of this staff seemingly not knowing what to do with the young players on the team and even more concerningly not prioritizing their development/roles both now and in the future.

Once again, no issues with us bottoming out, as a STH I'm totally on board here, but seeing the "future" pieces currently on the roster get torpedoed by this staff in order to try and scrape out 2-1 wins every night is a huge problem.

[FBI]

I HATE our system

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FBI

I HATE our system

We have a system..

[Enoch Root]

This narrative that it is the coach's fault for every single player, regardless of how they've been treated (Honzek up, Kuznetsov not up, for example) is just ridiculous. No matter what they do (and they are doing different things for different players), it's criticized.

Here's a thought - it's radical, but here me out - maybe the team isn't very good, and isn't playing very well.

And maybe we're being a little over the top with our criticism when we're complaining about Kuznetsov and Honzek, who are actually doing very well.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Zary has been awful. That's on him.

[NewFan]

I think Conroy and the management has a plan to rebuild the team for sure, by drafting more, keeping or trading in younger players but also giving current veteran players to decide to choose their own path to show that the organization is the first class organization.
My problem is this plan is taking too long to rebuild the team. They should have faster road by trading all the players who shouldn't/couldn't be member for future team. I can understand Backlund signing. Also we stuck with Huber, Weegar or Kadri. But I wouldn't keep this long Andersson, Coleman and wouldn't sign Hanley, Bean, Frost type players. Have plan what team you want to build with what core of players and follow that instead of wait and see type plan what is current situation dictates future decisions.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, Backlund's ability to help young players develop cannot be over-stated. That in itself is worth more than whatever they might get in return for moving him.

Backlund re-signed to be a veteran leader on whatever rebuild is happening. I’m good with him, Lomberg, whoever else are the relatively low paid vets to stick around and steward culture with the young guys.

Theoretically we should then be free and clear to move the other vets who actually will get a good return.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

100% this.

You have to ice a team. You have to have some vets or you will never hit the floor. And trading Backlund isn't going to change the rebuild in any significant way - what would they get for him a 2nd? Maybe a 2nd and a 3rd? Then they would have to go spend money on UFAs to hit the floor anyway.

But most importantly: you have to have a captain and a face of the franchise. People need to remember that they aren't the only fans, and there are kids out there who look up to the players. Backlund is the perfect captain for now.

You don’t need a captain at all, it’s not uncommon for teams to go without one. In fact the flames had no official captain for 2 seasons between Gio and Backlund.

And kids need a captain to look up to? No lol. Kids adored Gaudreau and there were swarms of em with his jersey, not Gio or Backlund.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Backlund re-signed to be a veteran leader on whatever rebuild is happening. I’m good with him, Lomberg, whoever else are the relatively low paid vets to stick around and steward culture with the young guys.

Theoretically we should then be free and clear to move the other vets who actually will get a good return.

And then there's Huberdeau, who's future purpose in life is to help us get over the cap floor.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Zary has been awful. That's on him.

I no longer assign full blame on young players struggling in Calgary.

Mega disappointing to see Zary having such an awful start, but there's something about this organization and how they coach that just doesn't give young players the stability to make an impact. If you look at Zary's best play here (and Pospisil's), it's when night in and night out they played with a mentor - much like Honzek is seeing the benefit of this year.

That stuff matters to player development.

Instead Zary is getting kicked all around the roster, and it's not like it's being done for players that are making a larger material impact either.

Is he a centre? Is he a 2nd line winger? Is he a 4th line centre? 3rd line winger?

The Flames are garbage for giving young players a stable environment to grow in.

[EVERLAST]

I hope Cooley reads CP for the support because the team in front of him .....that's abuse not support.

Hopefully he and Wolf sit side by side and can roll eyes at their teammates.

God that has to suck . I knew we'd suck but this is lower than a snakes belly.

And as for McKenna ? Unless the fix is in even with a 25% chance the Flames never get this lucky .

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I no longer assign full blame on young players struggling in Calgary.

Mega disappointing to see Zary having such an awful start, but there's something about this organization and how they coach that just doesn't give young players the stability to make an impact. If you look at Zary's best play here (and Pospisil's), it's when night in and night out they played with a mentor - much like Honzek is seeing the benefit of this year.

That stuff matters to player development.

Instead Zary is getting kicked all around the roster, and it's not like it's being done for players that are making a larger material impact either.

Is he a centre? Is he a 2nd line winger? Is he a 4th line centre? 3rd line winger?

The Flames are garbage for giving young players a stable environment to grow in.

So do we keep Kadri, Coleman, and other vets and try to have better balance on the lines to mentor the young players?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

They had an opportunity to sell assets in what was a sellers market last trade deadline. Carlo went for a freaking 1st and 4th and more but we kept Anderrson. Brock Nelson went for a 1st, 3rd, and Caleb Ritchie. But we did not even ask Kadri if he would waive his NTC.

The reason we kept both players was to try to get into the playoffs. That is not what a rebuilding club does. You're not trying to be competitive and sneak into a playoff spot during a rebuild with your vets. You are thinking longer term and trying to acquire as many picks as possible, while also trying to draft as high as possible and unloading the vets.

You can argue whether we should or shouldn't off load vets when we are that close to a playoff spot. But choosing to stand pat pretty much goes against the rebuilding philosophy when you have a sellers market. We definitely did not choose a rebuild last year, but we certainly are being forced into it now if we keep losing.

Ideally you'd trade those guys in the off-season if you get a good offer when maybe you can get a bad team to give you a good pick. These first round picks traded last year are all going to be late 20 picks (except maybe the Leafs pick I guess). That Colorado pick the Islanders got is going to be 30th overall or something. Not exactly a franchise altering pick.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No, the goalposts haven't moved. "Around $7.5" (no one quoted an actual amount) in Calgary is a lower salary than $7.35 in Vegas. The math isn't hard.

Yes, Math isn't hard. $7.5MM is greater than $7.35. I was talking about signed contracts he did not sign for more. Sure his take home pay is more but are we going to start throwing in tax loop holes, sponsorship opportunities, the US-CAN tax treaties and everything else to go down a wormhole on something that wasn't even the point?

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Your main point was already patiently and sufficiently addressed, I think.

Instead of rumours, hearsay, and what the Flames didn’t do, it seems way more reasonable to judge the Flames on what they did do, and listen to the stories management and players tell about these situations after the fact, instead of holding on to incomplete or untrue rumours as your source of truth.

My main point was that Flames made competitive offers and it wasn't some big brained move that we offered non-competitive offers to avoid the scrutiny of the rebuild. I don't think anyone commented on that. My post seems to be getting aggregated with everyone from team tank that has ever said anything about the re-build. I wasn't really commenting on rumours and hearsay unless you are referring to my other comment on re-build vs. re-tool which I would defend.

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Bitching about trying to sign Hanifin is also just flat out bizarre.

The one he gave an offer to that was below market was Lindholm.

Conroy tries to sign one out of eight veterans he traded and a bunch of posters are like “he tried to sign all of them” LOL.

Who is bitching about Hanifin? I assume you are talking about me since you're quoting responses to mine. It's strange the discourse around the team is so messy right now. If you say one thing you are assumed to have the same thoughts that anyone that has ever been pro tank has typed and vice versa. I simply made a comment on competitive offers and (if you are referring to my other post on rebuild vs. re-tool) that the preference of the org was to stay or become as competitive as quickly as possible. What makes you say the offer was below market value? Lindholm only had 1 PPG year and in his best years he played third banana to Johnny and Chucky. He wanted to be paid like a #1 centre and the Flames did not want to pay that. I don't think it makes offer not competitive because they disagreed on value. Flames just looked at a larger sample size rather than one year and were rightly proven right with his performances in Vancouver and Boston. Also, lumping in every single vet that has departed as evidence of a rebuild instead of a retool is a bit of an exaggeration. Kuzmenko? Mangiapane? Zadarov (who actually fits the timeline if Hanifin does)? Vets turnover every year I would not call all of those pieces core and evidence of the Flames being in a rebuild for years)


Anyways, my last post on the matter. I'm not interested in responding for other things outside of my own posts... For the record, I am team tank and don't think every single vet needs to be traded. I worry that would destroy Wolf since goalies are so volatile. I want them to competitively lose with the focus on developing the young players we have so that we have some excitement while losing.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

So do we keep Kadri, Coleman, and other vets and try to have better balance on the lines to mentor the young players?

My take is it has less to do with the linemates themselves being mentors, but more just consistent roles and linemates in general.

Outside of Honzek-Backlund-Coleman (123 minutes - 75% of Honzek's ice time) we've seen very little consistency with lines.

Zary hasn't played more than 32 minutes on a single line this season.

31:42: Lomberg - Zary - Klapka (4th line C - 18%)
30:08: Farabee - Kadri - Zary (2nd line RW)
25:54: Sharangovich - Zary - Farabee (2nd line C)
17:53: Coleman - Backlund - Zary (2rd line RW - maybe LW)
13:59: Honzek - Frost - Zary (2nd line RW)

Sharangovich is in the same boat - his most common line combination makes up 17% of his ice time.

30:03: Farabee - Frost - Sharangovich (17%)
25:54: Farabee - Zary - Sharangovich
21:27: Farabee - Kadri - Sharangovich
17:01: Lomberg - Sharangovich - Klapka
14:55: Farabee - Sharangovich - Coronato

Coronato was in the same boat until recently, now they've left Huberdeau - Frost - Coronato a bit more consistent and suddenly he's looking threatening again.

46:50: Huberdeau - Frost - Coronato (23%)
33:08: Gridin - Kadri - Coronato
23:22: Coleman - Backlund - Coronato
14:55: Farabee - Sharangovich - Coronato
12:13: Huberdeau - Kadri - Coronato

Your most common line combination shouldn't make up less than 25% of your ice time.

Compare that to some other forwards on other teams where lines have been consistent.

I'm going to compare that to somebody like Oliver Kapanen who has been a surprise young performer for Montreal this year.

120 minutes with one line - 74% of his ice time.

Not that we have prospects the same Level of Celebrini and Smith but they've played 65% of their ice time together - 50% with Toffoli as the 3rd member of the line.

Huska needs to find more defined roles for these lines.

They seem to have 2 they like now.

Huberdeau - Frost - Coronato
Honzek - Backlund - Coleman

Now they need to find spots for Farabee, Sharangovich, Zary, Klapka, and Kadri that make sense. Personally still feel like Lomberg sitting and having Morton/Kerins as another C option would make this a lot easier, or just make the decision to try to develop Zary as a C at the NHL level.