Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Racki
Plays that involve a puck entering the net as a direct result of a “distinct kicking motion” shall be ruled NO GOAL.
This is the point, it was not a direct result. There is an intervening factor, Helle swatting it into the net.
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*sigh*
I'm not going to copy and paste the rule which is black and white.
It was a bad call.
I asked gemini to interpret the rule book:
According to the National Hockey League (NHL) rulebook, if a player propels the puck towards the net with a distinct kicking motion and it deflects off the goalkeeper's hockey stick while the goaltender is attempting to make a save, it would not be considered a good goal.
The rules state that a goal cannot be scored by an attacking player who uses a distinct kicking motion to propel the puck into the net. This rule extends to situations where a kicked puck deflects off any player, including the goalkeeper or an official, and enters the net.
While there is a provision that a kicked puck deflecting off the stick of any player can be a good goal, this rule specifically excludes the goalkeeper's stick. Therefore, a deflection off the goalkeeper's stick from a distinct kicking motion by an attacking player would result in the goal being disallowed.
This interpretation is based on NHL Rule 49.2, which addresses kicking the puck, and related clarifications on what constitutes a legal goal in such circumstances. The key elements are the "distinct kicking motion" and the specific exclusion of the goalkeeper's stick in the context of kicked-puck deflections that would otherwise be permissible if deflected off another player's stick.
I then asked:
does it matter if the puck was simply directed TO the net and maybe wasn't going in anyways?
Generally, no, it does not change the ruling that it would be "no goal." The NHL rule (primarily Rule 49.2) focuses on whether a "distinct kicking motion" by an attacking player propelled the puck and that puck subsequently entered the net after deflecting off "any player, goalkeeper or official."
The Key Factor: The "distinct kicking motion" is the initiating action. If that is present, and the puck then goes into the net off the goalkeeper (including their stick), the goal is typically disallowed.
Initial Trajectory Less Important: The rule doesn't usually make a distinction about whether the kicked puck was definitively going to cross the goal line before it hit the goaltender's stick. The fact that it was kicked and then deflected off the goalie (or their stick, which is excluded from the "good goal off a stick" exception) into the net is what triggers the "no goal" ruling.
As one of the search results (Source 1.1, a Reddit discussion) indicated in a specific controversial play, one user commented, "Whether it would've gone in doesn't matter, it's that they determined that Hellebuyck put it in himself. If it was simply deflected in, it wouldn't count." This highlights that a deflection off the goalie from a kicked puck (regardless of initial trajectory) is typically no goal. #
2. Does it matter if the goaltender played the puck off his stick trying to save it?
No, the act of the goaltender making a save attempt when the puck deflects off their stick generally does not make it a good goal if the puck was initially propelled by a distinct kicking motion from an attacking player.
Deflection Rule Prevails: NHL Rule 49.2 states that "A goal cannot be scored by an attacking player who kicks a puck that deflects into the net off any player, goalkeeper or official." The goalkeeper's stick is considered part of the goalkeeper in this context, especially since the rule that allows goals off a kicked puck deflecting from a stick specifically excludes the goalkeeper's stick (as noted in Source 1.1, 1.2, 1.7 from the initial search, and confirmed by Paul Stewart in Source 2.3: "If a kicked puck deflects into the net off the goalie's stick, it's no goal."). #
Intent of the Goalie (Save Attempt): The goalie's intent to make a save is their job; the deflection is still a consequence of the kicked puck hitting them. The rule is in place to prevent goals scored by a kicking motion, and a deflection off the goalie (or their stick) doesn't negate the initial illegal act of kicking it in.
The Fine Line: "Deflection" vs. "Goaltender Propelling Puck Into Own Net"
This is where interpretations can become contentious, as hinted in some of the search results (like the Reddit thread in Source 1.1 and 2.1).
Simple Deflection: If the puck is kicked by an attacker and simply changes direction off the goalie's stick (while the goalie is trying to make a save) and goes in, it's generally no goal.
"Own Goal" Scenario (More Than a Deflection): If, however, the situation is judged differently – for instance, if the kicked puck was going wide, and the goaltender made a distinct motion to play the puck with their stick (not just a reaction save deflection) and in doing so, they propelled or directed it into their own net in a way that is seen as a new action rather than a mere deflection of the original kicked shot – then it could potentially be ruled a good goal. This is because goals scored by a defending player (including the goalie) into their own net are usually considered good goals, regardless of how the puck got to them (unless there was a stoppage in play or another infraction that would nullify it).
One of the Reddit comments (Source 1.1) noted a ref's explanation for a controversial goal: "Winnipeg goalie deflected puck into net" but then others argued "They said the goaltender put it in his own net, not that it deflected off of him. The goalie hit it with his stick in to his own net." This illustrates the potential for different interpretations by officials based on whether it's a deflection from the kick or a new act by the goalie. #
Hockey Canada rules (Source 1.3) also state: "Kicking the puck cannot result in a goal, unless a defending player kicks the puck into their own goal." While this isn't the exact NHL rule wording for an attacking player's kick followed by a goalie's action, it shows the principle that a defending player putting the puck in their own net can result in a goal.
In Summary for Your Scenarios:
If it's a clear "distinct kicking motion" by an attacker, and the puck goes in directly off a deflection from the goalie's stick while they are making a save, it should be no goal, regardless of whether the kicked puck was initially on target.
The complexity arises if the officials determine the goalie did more than just deflect the puck – if they believe the goalie took control or made a subsequent play that directed the puck into their own net. This is a judgment call. However, based on your description of the puck deflecting off the stick while the goalie is trying to make the save, it leans heavily towards the "no goal" interpretation under the kicking rule.
an impartial, heartless AI.
