Making the playoffs or keeping our top-10 first round pick 2025?

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

What are you even talking about. You clearly are delusional and have no idea what a rebuild is.

Who said Colorado is winning the cup? Are you comparing us to them? I’m sure they are shaking at the thought of playing the Flames in the playoffs.

You just bounce around and make up ####. Calling Vladar great. Couldn’t answer what young forwards outside the obvious are taking huge strides.

Vegas traded for their players. Signed Pieterangelo. They are also a one off being an expansion team. Soon they will have to do what we are doing. You can just look at Seattle and see why it’s a one off. This isn’t the CFL you don’t rebuild overnight.

Okay. So you’re confident in your team building strategy and you don’t seem to like mine which is probably close to what Conroy is doing.

You mention above that colorado and vegas were the model teams that the Flames should be worried about meeting in the playoffs. One of which didn’t follow the tear down strategy which leaves colorado who sort of did.

What other teams would you say followed your strategy recently that you think might win the cup this year? Florida definitely didn’t follow it and they won last year.

[Paulie Walnuts]

No your strategy is not what Conory is doing.

It’s very obvious you have no idea how teams are built and rebuilds go. It’s not all the same and they don’t always work the first try. I never said Vegas was the model team and again maybe sit back and think to yourself why Vegas didn’t do a rebuild. THEY ARE A EXPANSION TEAM. They came into the league with a great expansion draft they had no other way to build a team. Do yourself a favour and before you keep suggesting things like we go sign free agents and reup aging player go look at how the cup winners got their top tier talent. Find me one team that signed their #1C in free agency. Tell me how many teams won a cup without an elite #1C.

We should have known from your username. You’re a Rider fan so you have been cheering for mediocre teams your whole life. It’s not how you win the Riders know that best.

[jayswin]

I do like the statement that Colorado "sort of" followed the tear down strategy, lol. Yeah, that's a bit of an understatement.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I do like the statement that Colorado "sort of" followed the tear down strategy, lol. Yeah, that's a bit of an understatement.

Florida as well. I guess Barkov just came out of thin air. A contender who needed to change up the mix on the team and how they play.

Chicago and LA a couple of teams that always stayed in the mix, went out and signed their top players in free agency. They never drafted in the top 5.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Florida as well. I guess Barkov just came out of thin air. A contender who needed to change up the mix on the team and how they play.

Chicago and LA a couple of teams that always stayed in the mix, went out and signed their top players in free agency. They never drafted in the top 5.

It’s worth pointing out Chicago was slotted to draft 5th overall the year they got Kane.

If they actually make the playoffs, bully for them.

But they’ve been playing poor hockey for over a month. Their top players are all old.

What happens in the next three months is kinda irrelevant - they’re going to be bad for the next 4-6 years no matter what.

[Goriders]

The best players I have seen since I’ve watched the Flames were Iginla and Gaudreau. One aquired via trade. The other drafted in the 4th round.

The higher picks in the same time frame would be Monahan, Bennett and Tkachuk. Tkachuk being the only one that could carry his team.

Point I’m making is there are a number of teams that gutted themselves within a short window to draft higher and supposedly get better players. I’d put Buffalo, Chicago, Anahiem, San Jose in there. Last I checked they are still garbage.

You’re not going to build a team just through the draft. As I said it’s a combo of trades, free agents and drafting. I think the Flames have done a good job of drafting the last few tears. They seem to have good solid depth on defense and in net. They have a handful of forwards that are turning into solid players. But they need to fill in center depth.

I don’t think they are going to be bad enough in the near future to drop down into the top 1-5 window so I would guess they’ll be filling in those spots via trades or free agency. It does not look to me like they are going the San Jose route.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Florida as well. I guess Barkov just came out of thin air. A contender who needed to change up the mix on the team and how they play.

Chicago and LA a couple of teams that always stayed in the mix, went out and signed their top players in free agency. They never drafted in the top 5.

You look at the rest of their top players from their cup run.

Tkachuk, Reinhart, Bennet, verheaghe, tarasenko, Rodrigues, Forsling, Montour, bobrovsky

They didn’t draft any of them. Barkov was their 3rd leading scorer in the regular season season. So part of the puzzle. But not why the won.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

No your strategy is not what Conory is doing.

It’s very obvious you have no idea how teams are built and rebuilds go. It’s not all the same and they don’t always work the first try. I never said Vegas was the model team and again maybe sit back and think to yourself why Vegas didn’t do a rebuild. THEY ARE A EXPANSION TEAM. They came into the league with a great expansion draft they had no other way to build a team. Do yourself a favour and before you keep suggesting things like we go sign free agents and reup aging player go look at how the cup winners got their top tier talent. Find me one team that signed their #1C in free agency. Tell me how many teams won a cup without an elite #1C.

We should have known from your username. You’re a Rider fan so you have been cheering for mediocre teams your whole life. It’s not how you win the Riders know that best.

You forgot to mention the recent teams following your strategy that are having success.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It’s worth pointing out Chicago was slotted to draft 5th overall the year they got Kane.

If they actually make the playoffs, bully for them.

But they’ve been playing poor hockey for over a month. Their top players are all old.

What happens in the next three months is kinda irrelevant - they’re going to be bad for the next 4-6 years no matter what.

But they still would have drafted 5th and you’re forgetting Toews. Also none of these teams started plugging holes in free agency or trades. They did it after they had a core in place and saw what missing pieces the team had.

We don’t even have a core built yet and people are already talking nonsense about the rebuild is over.

[Geeoff]

Thankfully, the guy who made this stupid trade is not with the team anymore.

Also, thankfully, Montreal is in the East, so even if they draft the next Crosby with our pick, it's not that bad.

It's not really worth worrying about where the Flames finish in the standings because we can't really control that anyway. I do think Conroy should go into the trade deadline as a seller.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Lmao this conversation is over. You’re right Barkov was a tiny piece to why Florida won he was inconsequential. Rebuild over time to go all in.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Does Florida win without Barkov? I doubt it. Does Florida acquire a Barkov-level player without drafting him in the first place? I doubt that too. Maybe they would have been in on the Eichel deal then, but they would also have been forced to trade away a lot of value there, so no guarantee that they would end up with a winning team that way either.


It is even harder for a team like Calgary to build a team of UFAs and from Trades because of the amount of players that simply don't want to play here - they won't sign here as UFAs even with over-payment, and great players often have NTCs that include Calgary. I don't think you can look at how Florida or Vegas or some other teams have built their team and assume that it somehow is a decent enough blueprint to follow - or a decent enough blueprint that it will at least give you an option.


Calgary has one choice and one choice only - they need to draft a core. They might get lucky and be able to trade for another core piece or two in a trade if they target young enough players who aren't eligible for NTCs yet, and they can surely sign decent complimentary support pieces off the UFA bin - as long as they look like they are going to be a winning team.



We can point at the Gaudreau era and say that our best player wasn't drafted in the top 10. That's fair. I loved him and made no secret of it. However, that team never won a cup, and it didn't even come remotely close to winning one either year after year. Had Calgary drafted Eichel in 2015 instead of acquiring Hamilton, and including the trade afterwards in which they ended up with Lindholm and Hanifin, I bet that they would have gotten a lot closer to winning that cup.



Iginla got close, that's for sure, and depending on how you view the "it was in" puck, arguably they did win it.



However, the last time (and only time) that the Flames actually won, they drafted a pretty darn good core and supplemented that with really smart trades. Players drafted from that cup winning team: #1C, #1LW, #1 RW, #1D, #2D, #1G - plus a bunch of other important players. That team doesn't win without smart trades like Gilmour, Mullen, McCrimmon, etc.. They don't win without really smart college grads signed as UFAs either - Otto, Patterson, Macoun, etc. However, there is no way they even get a sniff at the cup without Nieuwendyk, MacInnis, Suter (though he was hurt), Vernon, Roberts, Loob, Hrdina, etc.



Can Calgary draft top-line difference makers outside of the top 10? Yes - it is a resounding yes, actually, but those haven't been enough in the past.


Can Calgary attract top-line difference makers through the UFA route? That's a resounding no. So now you have one arm cut-off in building your team.


Can Calgary trade for top-end players that are available every so often? That's a mixed bag - will they re-sign here to make the cost make sense? Do they have NTCs blocking the trade in the first place? So this time, you don't have an arm cut-off, but you certainly have it tied behind your back too.


Calgary needs to prioritize building through the draft, and selecting fairly high. I am pretty sure that's the plan right now anyway. Conroy doesn't want to burn it down to the ground, and I agree with it. However, that doesn't mean you don't pick top 3. There are zero teams that are in the 'burn it to the ground' stage - everyone down there is trying to improve. Wouldn't surprise me to see Calgary close to the bottom 5 by the end of the season (they had way better players last year for the majority of the year, and finished 9th worst while having worse teams overall at the bottom). I think they definitely do finish at the bottom next season and the season after that. Even without trades, what are the chances that Kadri puts up a 60pt+ season at age 35? I love Backlund, but how long does he last? Coleman? Does Andersson get re-signed? There really aren't that many pegs left holding this team up. It is right above scorched earth right now, but this team is finding ways to win. I just don't see it continuing much longer.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Good point about Eichel. The team knew you can’t win without a #1C and even with the way our top line played that season we went all in for him even with the injury history. Just tells you hard they are to get and how important they are to winning well I guess not Barkov.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

But they still would have drafted 5th and you’re forgetting Toews. Also none of these teams started plugging holes in free agency or trades. They did it after they had a core in place and saw what missing pieces the team had.

We don’t even have a core built yet and people are already talking nonsense about the rebuild is over.

Who is saying this?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Who is saying this?

The rider fan

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The rider fan

If you think that's what he's saying, you aren't taking the time to read and understand it. I'm not saying I agree with his POV on everything but minimizing it down to "rebuild is over" is mis-characterizing his posts.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The rider fan

That’s not what I said.

You keep forgetting your list of recent scorched earth tear down teams that are having success. I’ll help you.

Anahiem
Chicago
San Jose
Buffalo

You can fill in the rest.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If you think that's what he's saying, you aren't taking the time to read and understand it. I'm not saying I agree with his POV on everything but minimizing it down to "rebuild is over" is mis-characterizing his posts.

I have read them. He doesn’t answer and just skips to something else that I didn’t say. When I said we would get a top team like Vegas or Colorado has 1st round matchup I guess that meant they are the model on how to build a team.

He said the team has too much talent. A lot of good young forwards and we aren’t far off, just need to sign a free agent center or trade for one but who will trade us one. His words not mine.

What teams usually go free agent shopping to plug holes? Conroy brought in stop gaps and getting us to the floor.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

But they still would have drafted 5th and you’re forgetting Toews. Also none of these teams started plugging holes in free agency or trades. They did it after they had a core in place and saw what missing pieces the team had.

We don’t even have a core built yet and people are already talking nonsense about the rebuild is over.

Show me one person who thinks making the playoffs this year means the rebuild is over.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Show me one person who thinks making the playoffs this year means the rebuild is over.

You can look at your thanks and see who they are. I’m not going to summarize anymore.