[Barn Burner] Boomer: "You were wrong"

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It's that. Championship teams aren't built by dismantling a competitive team. It just doesn't happen that way.

But once you are a bad team, you commit to building through drafting and development until the point where you are a contender. Then maybe you trade away some futures.

Some blame the one Hartley season for fooling the team's management into thinking they were a contender. Kid of sad if true. Maybe they felt they had to capitalize on Gaudreau's seasons while his AAV was moderate but even that seems wrong. His AAV as a percent of the cap isn't much different today than when he signed his second deal.

Agree with this. And whatever people think, I think that once you have young pieces like Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, and Tkachuk, you have to go for it.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Oh this is just so much bull#### unless you're 10 years old or younger. Remember the year after Iginla was traded away? Wanna check out that roster again?

Cammalleri-Monahan (rookie season)-Hudler
Stempniak-Backlund-Glencross
Colborne-Stajan-D. Jones
Galiardi-Bouma-McGrattan
Byron/Westgarth

Giordano-Brodie (the team's only saving grace was a legitimate top pair)
Russell-Wideman
Butler-Smid
O'Brien

Ramo/Berra

That's a bad team...but it is a bit funny that to field that lineup they traded three 4ths and a 5th for Colborne+Galiardi+Knight+Russell (one of the 4ths turned into Ville Husso)

Stempniak = 3rd...used a few moths later to acquire Bollig
Berra = 2nd

Then the next year:
Glencross = 2nd+3rd
Bartschi = 2nd

...before officially ending the scorched earth that off-season with the Hamilton trade.

They did eventually cash in on Hudler and Russell, but we also know how they spent this very small fortune of 2nds/3rds: Elliott, Smith, Lazar, Stone...Hamonic

UFA signings are one thing, but pissing away picks to fill the roster gaps is even worse. As is failing to recover anything at all for:

Cammi
Stajan
Colborne
Wideman
Byron
etc

And yes were are talking about 4ths or worse for most of these guys, but even those picks would mitigate the future instances of pick pissing for Fantanberg+Gustafsson et al.


Basically the scorched earth amounted to picking 4th/6th/6th and trading up from 100 to 50 several times.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^@ Comixzone (lost the quote for some reason)

All the signings you mentioned were stop gap players that were meant to help lead a young core.

We needed a somewhat legitimate starting goalie We had Ramo and Berra...it was bad. The Hiller and Elliott signings were meant to give the team some stability on the back end while they learned. Engelland was signed for the same reason, and honestly he turned out far better than expected. Raymond was a guy to fill out a lineup and provide some goal scoring for a couple seasons. It's not like he was part of the long term build.

Frolik was actually a very good free agent signing to provide veteran leadership and show the young guys good work ethic and systems play.

Don't acquire Hamilton? Don't acquire a top pairing offensive defenseman who was 23 at the time (I think) to add to a young core? What the #### are you smoking? It was a great move then, and it would even be a great move now at this point in his career. It didn't work out for chemistry issues, not because he wasn't a good player. It's fine because we parlayed that into Lindholm and Hanifin...again, good core pieces.

Troy Brouwer was an obvious mistake. It was dumb, but it had almost nothing to do with hindering a rebuild. In fact, one could argue that acquiring a bad free agent helps a team to remain poor enough in the standings to get a higher pick.

Mistakes were made, and there was a lot of transition in management during those 3 years, with the Feaster/Burke/Treliving team having not a single clear vision. I take your point that it could have been done a little better (and I do stress "little"), but to say this team has not tried a proper rebuild is, to borrow a phrase, "intellectually dishonest". You may not have liked the results, but they did try it.

[GioforPM]

Hamilton wasn't a mistake. Hamonic was.

And a big issue was the lack of a drafted goalie that panned out.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hamilton wasn't a mistake. Hamonic was.

And a big issue was the lack of a drafted goalie that panned out.

100% for all of this. I have a mea culpa on the Hamonic trade because I was very much in favor of it. I thought it would put us over the top. But that trade came much later when the core looked to be in place and we needed to start supplementing with assets.

It was an overpayment for the good version of Hamonic, and it was abysmal for the version we got.

But yeah, if you don't develop a decent goalie in the franchise, you have to go bargain bin shopping to be somewhat competitive. It's the one thing that really undermined the rebuild. No goaltending prospect turned out to be even a halfway decent NHL backup outside of Rittich, and that was pure luck.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

All the signings you mentioned were stop gap players that were meant to help lead a young core.

We needed a somewhat legitimate starting goalie We had Ramo and Berra...it was bad. The Hiller and Elliott signings were meant to give the team some stability on the back end while they learned. Engelland was signed for the same reason, and honestly he turned out far better than expected. Raymond was a guy to fill out a lineup and provide some goal scoring for a couple seasons. It's not like he was part of the long term build.

Frolik was actually a very good free agent signing to provide veteran leadership and show the young guys good work ethic and systems play.

Don't acquire Hamilton? Don't acquire a top pairing offensive defenseman who was 23 at the time (I think) to add to a young core? What the #### are you smoking? It was a great move then, and it would even be a great move now at this point in his career. It didn't work out for chemistry issues, not because he wasn't a good player. It's fine because we parlayed that into Lindholm and Hanifin...again, good core pieces.

Troy Brouwer was an obvious mistake. It was dumb, but it had almost nothing to do with hinding a rebuild. In fact, one could argue that acquiring a bad free agent helps a team to remain poor enough in the standings to get a higher pick.

Mistakes were made, and there was a lot of transition in management during those 3 years, with the Feaster/Burke/Treliving team having not a single clear vision. I take your point that it could have been done a little better (and I do stress "little"), but to say this team has not tried a proper rebuild is, to borrow a phrase, "intellectually dishonest". You may not have liked the results, but they did try it.

That Hamilton trade never would have happened had they structured the 2014/2015 roster properly - that's the key bit. They would have been drafting a lot higher because they would have missed the playoffs.

They shouldn't have been worrying about providing stability at that time. They should have been constructing their roster to suck. Ramo + Berra (or worse) should have been who they ran in net.

Their mission for 2014/2015 should have been to sell/suck/stink it out of the building. Their approach was wrong, and it's what started the entire path that they then went on.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That Hamilton trade never would have happened had they structured the 2014/2015 roster properly - that's the key bit. They would have been drafting a lot higher because they would have missed the playoffs.

They shouldn't have been worrying about providing stability at that time. They should have been constructing their roster to suck. Ramo + Berra (or worse) should have been who they ran in net.

Their mission for 2014/2015 should have been to sell/suck/stink it out of the building. Their approach was wrong, and it's what started the entire path that they then went on.

Okay, so just to get this straight. You're mad because that team overachieved and made the playoffs? And won a playoff round? You're pissed because they had a small amount of premature success? I don't get you at all.

They still managed to turn that year of success into Hamilton. It was brilliant. You're wrong about this.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by saillias

A rebuild doesn't stop because you sign UFAs. No team stops signing UFAs, what. We were clearly still rebuilding for longer than 1 year.

The revisionism about that rebuild is very strange. It was actually fine. Do you think that because they signed Raymond and Bollig and Engelland it didn't happen. It didn't spiral into a Edmonton or Buffalo-esque decade of hell. The core that emerged was good. Being upset about what happened with the key players in that core later is a different conversation

In my opinion, I don’t think the rebuild length was “fine” at all. I think management rushed the rebuild by trading for the likes of Dougie Hamilton, Travis Hamonic, Brian Elliott and etc.

How much better would the current team be or would’ve been if we had kept the picks instead and drafted a Matt Barzal or a Kyle Connor or a Jordan Kyrou or a Noah Dobson and etc. The amateur scouting staff out of all the departments of the Flames organization has done arguably the best work and I think I would’ve trusted them to make the right calls, especially when a team is rebuilding.

But instead, we’re exactly where we deserve to be, a middling team with little in the cupboard that’s forced to find expensive depth via free agency or trade to bolster the club and that has not been a proven way to build a contender.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Okay, so just to get this straight. You're mad because that team overachieved and made the playoffs? And won a playoff round? You're pissed because they had a small amount of premature success? I don't get you at all.

They still managed to turn that year of success into Hamilton. It was brilliant. You're wrong about this.

I'm not mad, but the Flames did not have a scorched Earth rebuild. That's what I was responding to.

Feaster sold Iggy and Bouw, and then it appeared he was doing a scorched earth rebuild - he slow played that summer after Iggy and Bouw got traded. There was nothing happening - and rightfully so. *Edit: looking at this Feaster even spent futures that Summer. Friggin' guy spent a 4th on Galiardi, a 5th on Russell, a 4th on Colborne, a 6th on Jackman, a 6th on MacDermid - good grief. It's death by a thousand cuts.

Flames then hired Burke (Sept. 2013), and that effectively ended any idea of a scorched earth/focused rebuild. They fired Feaster (good decision, December 2013), then Burke getting a 3rd for Stempniak and a 2nd for Berra was fine work - but they should have got that 2nd for Cammy too. The moment they hired Treliving though it was "rebuild over".

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

This is some revisionist history for sure. The Flames dominated most of the 7 game series against Dalllas but went up against an all world goaltender. Dallas has made very few changes to their roster and sit in 1st place today.

Flames also coughed up 2 goal leads in 2 losses against Edmonton. Some bad goaltending cost them games they would have won. They also rebounded from some terrible goals against and came back from 3-0 on the road to tie it but couldn’t get the go ahead. Edmonton dominated 1 game of the series and the rest was a toss up.

I don't disagree about the Dallas series, the Flames were clearly the better team. But Dallas just wasn't very good.

Against the Oilers I disagree totally, it never felt after game 1 that the Flames were in the driver's seat. People want to throw Markstom under the bus and rightfully so but the reality is Smith wasn't any better. Saying that goaltending cost Flames the series is a cop out. Both teams got trash goaltending.

[transplant99]

Hindsight is most definitely 20/20.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Saqe

I don't disagree about the Dallas series, the Flames were clearly the better team. But Dallas just wasn't very good.

Against the Oilers I disagree totally, it never felt after game 1 that the Flames were in the driver's seat. People want to throw Markstom under the bus and rightfully so but the reality is Smith wasn't any better. Saying that goaltending cost Flames the series is a cop out. Both teams got trash goaltending.

Even if Markstrom was as good as Smith (he wasn't) the Flames should have had a massive advantage in goal...they went out and got a top guy, Oilers settled for a guy the Flames cut loose.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Even if Markstrom was as good as Smith (he wasn't) the Flames should have had a massive advantage in goal...they went out and got a top guy, Oilers settled for a guy the Flames cut loose.

Markstom should've obviously been better. But neither goalie was stopping a beachball in that series (that dump in from the middle of the ice on Smith, lol). And if anything is revisionist history is saying that the Flames were equally good or better in that series.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Smith was average with a few bed kyitting moments in that series. Markstrom was outright bad with loads of them

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I'm not mad, but the Flames did not have a scorched Earth rebuild. That's what I was responding to.

Feaster sold Iggy and Bouw, and then it appeared he was doing a scorched earth rebuild - he slow played that summer after Iggy and Bouw got traded. There was nothing happening - and rightfully so. *Edit: looking at this Feaster even spent futures that Summer. Friggin' guy spent a 4th on Galiardi, a 5th on Russell, a 4th on Colborne, a 6th on Jackman, a 6th on MacDermid - good grief. It's death by a thousand cuts.

Flames then hired Burke (Sept. 2013), and that effectively ended any idea of a scorched earth/focused rebuild. They fired Feaster (good decision, December 2013), then Burke getting a 3rd for Stempniak and a 2nd for Berra was fine work - but they should have got that 2nd for Cammy too. The moment they hired Treliving though it was "rebuild over".

It seems like your idea of a rebuild means the team should have run out an army of 19 year olds for 5 years or so to get their heads kicked in.

An NHL organization needs vets. You need a mix of ages. I have my gripes too about some of the decisions that people still seem to have not gotten over like the Hamonic trade but why is Bollig for a third still being brought up? Who cares?

Unfortunately the Flames never won the lottery when they were in the running, unlike Dallas getting Hieskanen and Carolina getting Svechniov. Luck has a lot to do with it, more than most GM’s are comfortable with, I’d bet. Especially if the organizational mandate is to be competitive as 18+ years would suggest for this one. Look at Detroit. Been on the outside looking in for 6 years, going on 7 in all likelihood, and not a single top 3 pick to show for it. (That’s Flames luck for you). The trajectory of the Flames rebuild was not misguided. Execution was sometimes lacking but they weren’t wrong in trying to go about a V rebuild, opposed to a U.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by TOfan

It seems like your idea of a rebuild means the team should have run out an army of 19 year olds for 5 years or so to get their heads kicked in.

An NHL organization needs vets. You need a mix of ages. I have my gripes too about some of the decisions that people still seem to have not gotten over like the Hamonic trade but why is Bollig for a third still being brought up? Who cares?

Unfortunately the Flames never won the lottery when they were in the running, unlike Dallas getting Hieskanen and Carolina getting Svechniov. Luck has a lot to do with it, more than most GM’s are comfortable with, I’d bet. Especially if the organizational mandate is to be competitive as 18+ years would suggest for this one. Look at Detroit. Been on the outside looking in for 6 years, going on 7 in all likelihood, and not a single top 3 pick to show for it. (That’s Flames luck for you). The trajectory of the Flames rebuild was not misguided. Execution was sometimes lacking but they weren’t wrong in trying to go about a V rebuild, opposed to a U.

Every season I ask my Wings fan friend what his expectations are for the Wings. I write them down and at the end of the season I throw it in his face and use it as a shining example of a non-Chicago / Pens rebuild, and that remembering the winners from this strategy is a BS way to build a team.

An added bonus is that he loves Yzerman, and every year I can see the hue around his hero grow a little dimmer. The day he hates Stevie-Y will be almost as glorious as the day McDavid gives Edmonton the middle digit.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by TOfan

It seems like your idea of a rebuild means the team should have run out an army of 19 year olds for 5 years or so to get their heads kicked in.

An NHL organization needs vets. You need a mix of ages. I have my gripes too about some of the decisions that people still seem to have not gotten over like the Hamonic trade but why is Bollig for a third still being brought up? Who cares?

Unfortunately the Flames never won the lottery when they were in the running, unlike Dallas getting Hieskanen and Carolina getting Svechniov. Luck has a lot to do with it, more than most GM’s are comfortable with, I’d bet. Especially if the organizational mandate is to be competitive as 18+ years would suggest for this one. Look at Detroit. Been on the outside looking in for 6 years, going on 7 in all likelihood, and not a single top 3 pick to show for it. (That’s Flames luck for you). The trajectory of the Flames rebuild was not misguided. Execution was sometimes lacking but they weren’t wrong in trying to go about a V rebuild, opposed to a U.

DET is an interesting one. I wasn't a big fan of their UFA spending spree this year, but scrolling through their trade history I actually think it's totally fine. They've been super disciplined, and instead of pissing picks to patch holes and acquire "character", they acquired boatloads of picks (some even came with a side-dish veteran)

Since 2017, excluding draft day trades up/down (they've done quite a few trades up with their surplus)

IN:
23
30
33
45
48
52
52
54
55
60
2nd - STL 2023 in Leddy trade
3rd
3rd
3rd
3rd
3rd
3rd
3rd
4th
4th
4th
4th
5th
6th
7th


OUT:
52 - for Leddy, flipped for above
3rd - Nedeljkovic
3rd - Husso
4th
5th
5th
6th


NET:
23/30/33
7 x 2nds
5 x 3rds
3 x 4ths
Two goaltenders in their mid 20s; Nedeljkovic hasn't panned out, Husso looks pretty good.


Luck is a huge factor. They've only managed to draft 9/6/6/4/6/8. This build probably isn't going to work as they don't have enough elite talent, but they could go into their next attempt with an incredible asset base.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Markstom should've obviously been better. But neither goalie was stopping a beachball in that series (that dump in from the middle of the ice on Smith, lol). And if anything is revisionist history is saying that the Flames were equally good or better in that series.

Well Smith had better numbers

Calgary was in control of games 1 and 3 until Markstom facked it up
Calgary should have won game 5 but that is on the league

I think its fair to say Calgary was better in 3 of the 5 games outside of goaltending

[PeteMoss]

Scorched earth rebuild sounds great until your realize any team that has had success doing it - sucked for like 7 years in a row. They were just terribly managed and then lucked their way into success.

Even if you consider a team like Toronto a success of a scorched earth rebuild - they've won less playoff rounds than Calgary in recent years. But you look at the worst teams in 15-16:

Toronto - are a good team now, but haven't won a playoff round
Edmonton - no good
Vancouver - still suck and have never really been good
Columbus - still suck and have never really been good
Calgary -
Winnipeg - never really a contender
Arizona - still suck
Buffalo - still rebuilding

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Scorched earth rebuild sounds great until your realize any team that has had success doing it - sucked for like 7 years in a row. They were just terribly managed and then lucked their way into success.

Even if you consider a team like Toronto a success of a scorched earth rebuild - they've won less playoff rounds than Calgary in recent years. But you look at the worst teams in 15-16:

Toronto - are a good team now, but haven't won a playoff round
Edmonton - no good
Vancouver - still suck and have never really been good
Columbus - still suck and have never really been good
Calgary -
Winnipeg - never really a contender
Arizona - still suck
Buffalo - still rebuilding

Buffalo's is actually starting to look really good now.
Vancouver has never gone full scorched earth yet, not even this year.
Toronto has also never gone full scorched earth
Columbus just sucks, doesnt matter what they do.
Arizona is the epitome of how not to run a franchise, I wouldn't use them as a case point in anything NHL related. Not sure how Chayka is still employed.

The other MAJOR factor in scorched earth rebuilds is doing so in years where the draft stock is high. Couple that with almost certainly requiring you to get lucky and draft 1st if not top 2-3 during your worst years of said rebuild.

Edmonton got lucky (5 times over and still managed to F__k it up) - Still suck
Toronto got lucky with Matthews
Pittsburgh got lucky w/ Crosby and Malkin
Washington w/ Ovechkin etc etc

Buffalo on the other hand is the 'slow' rebuild model, where you inevitably get stuck rebuilding because your worst year you lose the draft lottery to the bloody oilers and McSaviour ends up out west.