Let's talk about: Oliver Kylington

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But like Bennett I don't just blame the team when a young player doesn't do much with opportunity.

Unlike you, I just don't see the opportunity you're talking about.

Bennett never got a top six centre opportunity here, even though that's what he was drafted to be. I know you think those stints as RW with Gaudreau and Monahan were opportunity, but that largely ignores how ineffectively Monahan was playing as a centre during that span, and the fact that I'd sooner expect Bennett to be more effective as a left side defenseman than as a right winger just based on his skillset/comfort areas. Back in 2017-18 when Monahan was done for the year was a no-brainer time to see if Bennett could salvage the season, and instead we put Nick Shore up there with Gaudreau while Bennett remained a 3LW. How could you be satisfied with that?

Kylington, up until game 3 of this season, never got a top four defenseman opportunity here, even though that's what he was drafted to be. JThe time when Hanifin was out last year was a no-brainer time tos ee if Kylington could thrive as Tanev's partner... instead we saw Nesterov promoted to that role while Kylington sat in the pressbox.

The focal point of my frustration is that the Flames operate on the following logic:

Prove us wrong that you don't belong in the bottom of the roster.

Most teams in the league, even Tampa (who were willing to have a nobody in Cirelli centre a former star in Stamkos!) operate on a different type of logic:

Prove us right that you do belong at the top of the roster.

For all the flack Edmonton gets, that's actually how guys like Puljujarvi and Nurse and Bouchard and Yamamoto* are thriving for them. Those guys aren't the problem for them, but they had to get some real opportunities right at the top of the lineup.

*Yamamoto is a question mark still, and he might prove Edmonton wrong altogether. But it's still a better way to see what you have IMO.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because this is a hyperbolic way to frame things?

The team has done a lot of good. Specifically with respect to Kylington they made a great decision to trade for the pick needed to draft him. They helped him develop wonderfully in the AHL - a couple years on AHL middle pairs picking up reps, with tons of time in the video roomreviewing every mistake I'm sure. Got him sent to the WJC where he was functionally their all-situations #1D (though a young Dahlin's savvy also impressed).

Cail MacLean came in and allowed Kylington an opportunity to be his powerplay, PK all situations guy in the AHL. Earned him a quick callup where he impressed for months before hitting a rookie wall.

The Flames developed Kylington right for three and a half years.

And then as soon as he hit the inevitable bumps in the road that come with transitioning to the NHL, they defaulted to a team fearful of his inexperience - even though he was very much a part of the hot start pre-All Star Break in 2018-19. Their response to his rookie wall was Oscar Fantenberg.

And since then, they treated him like an afterthought, eith no real flexibility for error or any show of belief in his potential.

Is it really so problematic to be questioning that specific aspect of how the Flames have handled some HIGH end talent?

It's not just Kylington, it's Bennett too.

It's watching your favourite team shoot itself in the foot playing Nick Shore or Nikita Nesterov types while pushing Bennett to a trade request and exposing Kylington on waivers. They were lucky Kylington cleared - I'm surr teams had interest but didn't have time to free up a roster spot for him, but no matter how calculated the risk was - it was an unnecessary one (see also Byron).

Why is the team immune to criticism for this key aspect of player development?

Darryl Sutter's utilization of not only Kylington, but also Dillon Dube this year is in stark contrast to how the organization has been run since Fall 2016. It's beyond fair to praise him for it, but that requires highlighting the contrast with how Gulutzan, Peters, Ward, Sutter and Treliving operated from Fall 2016 to Spring 2021.

He wasn't ready, it was obvious in his play.

Why is it so hard to grasp that sometimes a player needs something to happen, a trade, a scratch, not being gifted a spot so needing to work on certain aspects of the game to make it. Basically a shift in your mind or something to prove that drives you to finally make it.

Kylington signed a contract that would make him the guy to be called up because of cap. He was betting on himself and has made it impossible to take him out of the lineup because of his play. He was not playing the same way last year. He has put it all together.

Why the organization should take any flack here doesn't make sense. Whats to say if he was given a spot last year he completely fails and doesn't become what he is now? What if with more ice when he wasn't quite ready the Flames decided to just move on from the player?

Obviously things have now worked out for everyone. The way its going now you cannot say the Flames handled him incorrectly.

Things on the Kylington front are coming up roses.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

- Acquired Fantenberg to directly replace him, probably "because Corsi" (even though a lot of that had to do with the Kylington-Andersson rookie pair's COMBINED struggles - Kylington's metrics were stellar when he had a steady Prout next to him, even though Prout isn't a top 6 D on most teams)
- Acquired Gustafsson to directly replace him, probably "because points" (even though Gusaffsson was visibly worse in his own zone than Kylington's been since he was 19, and a lot of Gustaffsson's points came on the powerplay, where Kylington was never even given an opportunity)
- Aggressively shopped in Mark Stone deal while Valimaki was treated as untouchable
- Put on waivers after some visa issues probably outside of his control
- played eight of fifty six games in a year the team sorely needed a mobile puckmoving defenseman
- Exposed to expansion draft, with some rumours that he was even included with some adds to hang onto Giordano

Yeah, hyperbole

Right but if we don't agree that he was good and just being held back acquiring other defensemen makes sense.

It's an observation.

It's not uncommon for young players to have ups and downs before finally getting it and busting through.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Unlike you, I just don't see the opportunity you're talking about...

Oh my God. It's like you can't help yourself. This is turning into one of the most fascinating and disturbing instances of a poster doubling down on a bad take that I have ever seen.


Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Oh my God. It's like you can't help yourself. This is turning into one of the most fascinating and disturbing instances of a poster doubling down on a bad take that I have ever seen.


Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Cute, but Bennett's success given an actual opportunity in Florida and Kylington's success given an actual opportunity with Tanev are light years ahead of the pseudo-opportunities they've gotten the five years prior. If I'm the one doubling down on a bad take...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Cute, but Bennett's success given an actual opportunity in Florida and Kylington's success given an actual opportunity with Tanev are light years ahead of the pseudo-opportunities they've gotten the five years prior. If I'm the one doubling down on a bad take...

Bennett was given more opportunity but the fit was way better than anything in Calgary. And if it had taken a while to gel (like when Bennett got a few games with Gaudreau) who knows what they would have done.

Sometimes it just clicks on one team where it didn’t on another.

With Kylington it’s clear that Sutter wasn’t happy with his habits and now he is. I’m a bigger proponent of playing through mistakes and learning curves myself but that’s not the route Sutter (and Ward) took and maybe they were right.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Can we get you a “was right about Kylington and the NHL was wrong” description and move on already?

[PepsiFree]

Granteed is also the guy who said Lindholm had worse finishing ability than Jankowski.

I’m not particularly sure where the confidence comes from just because Kylington is doing well after several years of not doing well, but I’m not about to buy the Miss Cleo act.

I’ve said it once already, but there’s really nothing to complain about here. Kylington is doing well, this season, on the Flames. That’s a good thing through and through. How it got there doesn’t really matter.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sometimes it just clicks on one team where it didn’t on another.

I don't think that's sufficient. Doesn't matter who the individual player is - Gudbranson, Bennett, Zadorov, Monahan even Troy Brouwer and James Neal. Getting the most out of the roster was an issue for five years here. Maybe even longer depending on how you felt about Hartley.

I just think you gotta set players up to succeed.

Brouwer was a guy who needed to be playing

1) Bumper position on the PP (which he never even played here!)
2) In a sheltered role with a veteran centre and a speedy, skilled LW

Gulutzan gave him neither. Whether it was Tkachuk - Backlund - Brouwer or Versteeg - Bennett - Brouwer, we got the absolute least out of Brouwer.

I was no Brouwer fan even before the signing, but even I could have told you that the Fabbri-Stastny-Brouwer line's success had a lot to do with HOW he was used.

Neal deserves a lot of the blame for his lack of production here, but he too was setup to fail. His options were a shutdown line with Backlund (not his skillset), and being centred by Jankowski (not really a playdriving centre). The majority of Neal's actual success came with Bennett-Ryan as his linemates, but when that was abandoned it should have been identified by Peters that something like Czarnik - Bennett - Neal would work better than Bennett - Jankowski - Neal. You might say it's such a small thing to be losing sleep over all these years later - but the reality is that we had to sell ultra-low on Neal and now we've got a low value Lucic contract. Maybe getting just 20% more out of Neal that year gets us better return value in a trade.

It all adds up.

Sutter is getting more out of Gudbranson than I ever could have imagined, and I think that is very much because of HOW he has utilized him, it's not just a matter of "sometimes it clicks sometimes it doesn't".

Good teams find different roles for guys based on their strengths and weaknesses, not just plop them somewhere convenient. And they make the most out of injuries to key guys.

The Flames appear to be getting there this year, though they still need to figure out how to get more out of Monahan at ES. Monahan playing better or worse isn't exclusively a Monahan issue. It's a Sutter issue, and a Treliving issue. It's not about "just clicking".

[GioforPM]

I don’t disagree that you need to set players up to succeed BUT I don’t know that the Flames had the right ingredients to set Bennett up to succeed. He is succeeding playing second line centre with a winger that complements him very very well. There is no Huberdeau equivalent - not Gaudreau, not Tkachuk, not Mangiapane (not that he was here the whole time anyway). Sutter didn’t find any magic key for him. He got the right partner and the right opportunity in Fla and it helped that it worked right away. No patience needed.

With Kylington, it’s pretty clear that Sutter’s opinion is that he has been a real work in progress. We like the flash, the coaches disliked the unstructured play. It’s coming together now.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Unlike you, I just don't see the opportunity you're talking about.

Bennett never got a top six centre opportunity here, even though that's what he was drafted to be. I know you think those stints as RW with Gaudreau and Monahan were opportunity, but that largely ignores how ineffectively Monahan was playing as a centre during that span, and the fact that I'd sooner expect Bennett to be more effective as a left side defenseman than as a right winger just based on his skillset/comfort areas. Back in 2017-18 when Monahan was done for the year was a no-brainer time to see if Bennett could salvage the season, and instead we put Nick Shore up there with Gaudreau while Bennett remained a 3LW. How could you be satisfied with that?

Kylington, up until game 3 of this season, never got a top four defenseman opportunity here, even though that's what he was drafted to be. JThe time when Hanifin was out last year was a no-brainer time tos ee if Kylington could thrive as Tanev's partner... instead we saw Nesterov promoted to that role while Kylington sat in the pressbox.

The focal point of my frustration is that the Flames operate on the following logic:

Prove us wrong that you don't belong in the bottom of the roster.

Most teams in the league, even Tampa (who were willing to have a nobody in Cirelli centre a former star in Stamkos!) operate on a different type of logic:

Prove us right that you do belong at the top of the roster.

For all the flack Edmonton gets, that's actually how guys like Puljujarvi and Nurse and Bouchard and Yamamoto* are thriving for them. Those guys aren't the problem for them, but they had to get some real opportunities right at the top of the lineup.

*Yamamoto is a question mark still, and he might prove Edmonton wrong altogether. But it's still a better way to see what you have IMO.

You might be right but let it go man. Enjoy the player we hoped he could be.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by edslunch

You might be right but let it go man. Enjoy the player we hoped he could be.

And they literally sent Puljujarvi away to Europe.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And they literally sent Puljujarvi away to Europe.

It counts as development time on other teams.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And they literally sent Puljujarvi away to Europe.

Just to be accurate, no they didn't.

Puljujarvi refused to re-sign because Chiarelli / McLellan / (Hitchcock?) handled him much the same way Treliving / Gulutzan/Peters/Ward did our own 4th overall pick.

Puljujarvi then requested a trade.

Oilers changed coaches, and management

Holland refused to sell low on him whereas Treliving was happy to get a 2nd and Heineman for our 4th OA.

Then Tippett, Holland, and Puljujarvi came to a mutually agreeable decision, and Puljujarvi re-signed.

Then, because of covid, the Oilers loaned Puljujarvi to Finland team.

And then when last season started, Puljujarvi was playing top six minutes in the NHL.

And finally Puljujarvi is thriving in the exact role he was drafted to play.

The one key point here is that Oilers had significant turnover in management and coaching from when they outright botched the Puljujarvi situation.

[Enoch Root]

"I think he was NHL ready before"

"He is ready now"

"See, I was right"

Just let it go already. We can't change the past, and we can't know if he would have succeeded earlier, given more ice-time. I personally, don't think he would have, but I can't prove that any more than you can prove your assertion.

The bottom line is that he is succeeding now. And that is what we all want. Let's just enjoy it.

For once.

[dino7c]

Kylington ####ing sucked before this season...Darryl whipped his ass into shape

congrats at being right for the first time in your life

And PullYourRV should be thanking his lucky stars every night about his line mates, if he was in Arizona or something he would be a 5 goal nobody

/

[TheScorpion]

Kylington was a perfectly capable bottom-pair guy before this year.

[GioforPM]

Lol. Ok they didn’t send him to Europe, they just caused him to go to Europe. Which is what I meant.

And then they played him with McDavid. You could put Jake Virtanen in his spot and he’d pick up the same points IMO.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Kylington was a perfectly capable bottom-pair guy before this year.

His skating is and always was elite to the point he's probably a top 20 defenseman in that category, what was needed was a coach to allow him to use this talent and look past the odd mistake while learning how to play defense. Almost hard to believe it took hard ass Sutter to make it happen.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The thing about Kylington is he has found his confidence. You can see it when he grabs the puck now. The deer in the headlights is gone. He wants the puck and then he makes the smart play. He also recognizes when to jump in the rush and make something happen. He's been a blast to watch and living up to the prediction a couple years ago that we had our Brodie replacement in the system already. Too bad it took this long to see him blossom.