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Old 08-20-2021, 05:22 PM   #161
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So, where is the arena in this picture?
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Old 08-20-2021, 07:26 PM   #162
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FWIW that wasn't really a lame duck season, with move not announced until April (although speculated by some during the season). And if you look at attendance since 2000, it was consistently between 5,000 and 6,500, with one outlier at 7,300.

Houston is not a hockey town. Now could you find enough fans in a city with metro population over 7 million and some western Canadians working here? You'd think so. You'd also expect more than 3 functioning hockey rinks. You shouldn't need an NHL team for that. How many in Seattle?
Seattle is not really a hockey town. So I don’t know how many decent arenas they have.

Houston did just fine as both an AHL and WHA city. Consistent to 10 in the AHL and often the only southern one. And their WHA team was strong (they packed it in one year before the league ended but only because they were not going to be a merger team).
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Old 08-20-2021, 07:58 PM   #163
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Plus Houston is rife with head offices who will want in on seasons tix and boxes.
I have a buddy who works at one of the Majors in Houston and a few years ago when I was down there I was asking him about the industry and perks down there. It is quite a bit different than Calgary. The companies are very insular down there and they all have separate office parks and not much interaction unlike in Calgary. There also isn't a lot of corporate gifting or "welfare" down there. They really don't treat vendors or suppliers to a lot of outings and sporting events which is common up here. I was really surprised to here about how tightly run the operation was in Houston as I expected that money would be splashed around everywhere.
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Old 08-20-2021, 10:23 PM   #164
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I have a buddy who works at one of the Majors in Houston and a few years ago when I was down there I was asking him about the industry and perks down there. It is quite a bit different than Calgary. The companies are very insular down there and they all have separate office parks and not much interaction unlike in Calgary. There also isn't a lot of corporate gifting or "welfare" down there. They really don't treat vendors or suppliers to a lot of outings and sporting events which is common up here. I was really surprised to here about how tightly run the operation was in Houston as I expected that money would be splashed around everywhere.
The office parks thing is pretty accurate. But in my world there’s still a lot of marketing going on for law firms, accounting firms, bankers, etc. It’s not the oil companies treating vendors, it’s professionals courting the big companies.
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Old 08-20-2021, 10:48 PM   #165
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Coyotes weren’t making their payments on time, but this sure just sounds like a toxic relationship where the Glendale wanted to be the one to end the relationship first. Coyotes were going to do this anyway later since they have plans to have an arena in Tempe.

However, they better either renegotiate with Glendale for a couple of years more (doubtful) or they’ll HAVE to play at the veterans coliseum. ASU wants no part of them, nor do they have an arena with the proper attendance.

Gonna be interesting how this plays out.
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Old 08-20-2021, 10:50 PM   #166
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That's very wrong, the arena is located directly behind the white steel structure in the left-center of the picture.
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Old 08-20-2021, 11:16 PM   #167
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That's very wrong, the arena is located directly behind the white steel structure in the left-center of the picture.
It was a joke...

"Here's a picture of my daughter"
"What? That's crazy she looks twice your age!"
"Huh? Oh, no not her. This is my daughter here..."

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Old 08-21-2021, 08:54 AM   #168
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The arena is conveniently located near the Ramada! And a movie theater?

You're talking a complimentary Continental breakfast and a movie and maybe a hockey game if you feel like it? Whats not to like?
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Old 08-21-2021, 10:14 AM   #169
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I like the actual arena in Glendale, and from where I usually stay it’s not as far as for people who stay more south Scottsdale. But yeah, that entertainment district is a bit of an island.
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Old 08-21-2021, 10:18 AM   #170
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I know it’ll never happen in terms of Bettman willingly relocating a western team into Quebec but they really do deserve to have a team and I think it’s ridiculous to not have a guaranteed cashcow running in Quebec. They still sell Nordiques threads like crazy.
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Old 08-21-2021, 11:09 AM   #171
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I know it’ll never happen in terms of Bettman willingly relocating a western team into Quebec but they really do deserve to have a team and I think it’s ridiculous to not have a guaranteed cashcow running in Quebec. They still sell Nordiques threads like crazy.
Don't say never. All it takes is Houston to not want them really and where else are they going to go that has an NHL ready arena? Bettman didn't want Winnipeg to get the Thrashers either but if there are no other options....
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Old 08-21-2021, 11:24 AM   #172
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Don't say never. All it takes is Houston to not want them really and where else are they going to go that has an NHL ready arena? Bettman didn't want Winnipeg to get the Thrashers either but if there are no other options....
Yeah QC is the only city in last decade to express willingness to pay NHL's price.

No one in Houston (Fertitta) has expressed interest in landing a team for last 3 or 4 years. And the interest then was just some passing comments really. KC, Portland... only people talking about these places are fans.

At this point we have a Phoenix based owner who is having an arena spat so most logical outcome still seems to be finding a temporary solution while some kind of local arena deal gets worked out.

Now he could get fed up tomorrow and want to sell, and a buyer in another city could emerge quickly but until then it's just fans talking. And if moving becomes a reality, the QC ownership group were the last known potential interested parties at the NHL's asking price, although I do really question their ability to pay that kind of coin.
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Old 08-21-2021, 06:56 PM   #173
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Yeah QC is the only city in last decade to express willingness to pay NHL's price.

No one in Houston (Fertitta) has expressed interest in landing a team for last 3 or 4 years. And the interest then was just some passing comments really. KC, Portland... only people talking about these places are fans.

At this point we have a Phoenix based owner who is having an arena spat so most logical outcome still seems to be finding a temporary solution while some kind of local arena deal gets worked out.

Now he could get fed up tomorrow and want to sell, and a buyer in another city could emerge quickly but until then it's just fans talking. And if moving becomes a reality, the QC ownership group were the last known potential interested parties at the NHL's asking price, although I do really question their ability to pay that kind of coin.
This is 3 years old but Fertitta is interested if the right deal comes along and the Houston fans show interest, Both of Fertitta's sons are huge hockey fans and the natural rivalry with Dallas should make this move a no-brainer IMO

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Old 08-21-2021, 10:18 PM   #174
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So I live in Houston, and have for 3 years now. I’ve lived here twice before for a year each. I can tell you that first and foremost, it’s a sports town where betting means everything. Moreover, physical, aggressive sports are loved.

Also see a lot Canadians in Houston. I’ve been approached by 3-4 people already about splitting season tickets if the Yotes are coming.

Even the bar I am at currently has a couple of screens on the NHL Network. It’s not even hockey season, and the cowboys played the Texans in preseason tonight.
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Old 08-22-2021, 12:24 AM   #175
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The difference in minor hockey between Dallas and Houston is immense too. Way more rinks, players and elite programs in Dallas.

So we'll see, It's no slam dunk. The oil connection with Calgary is real but you'd expect more youth hockey as a result.

The biggest thing going for Houston is it's size.
When the North Stars moved to Dallas, the original plan (according to Jim Lites) was to move to Houston because of the market size and because the city of Houston had a much longer history and deeper fan base with professional hockey but they couldn’t work out an arena deal so they chose Dallas.

Houston had much more for youth hockey programs, etc… compared to Dallas. The rinks and programs came to Dallas after the Stars came and invested in the programs.

The biggest issues for youth hockey in Houston present day is a lack of rinks (5 sheets of ice at 4 facilities spread out over a city of 7 million + people) makes it logistically difficult (competitive teams travel to play in a league run through the Dallas Stars primarily in Dallas) and ice cost $400-600 usd per hour making youth hockey costs a huge barrier. House hockey costs $1500 usd for casual hockey and travel hockey runs $7000-$10,000 usd all in when you factor in travel costs.

The hockey programs that do exist in Houston are great and the community is fantastic.
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Old 08-22-2021, 04:38 PM   #176
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Craig Morgan today listed the Veterans Coliseum as the most likely interim destination for the Coyotes between the last year in Glendale and the opening of a future Tempe complex.

Also speculated they could look into playing out of Chase Field, similar to how the Lightning played a few seasons out of Tropicana Field in the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/craigsmorgan/sta...162384901?s=21
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Old 08-22-2021, 05:47 PM   #177
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When the North Stars moved to Dallas, the original plan (according to Jim Lites) was to move to Houston because of the market size and because the city of Houston had a much longer history and deeper fan base with professional hockey but they couldn’t work out an arena deal so they chose Dallas.

Houston had much more for youth hockey programs, etc… compared to Dallas. The rinks and programs came to Dallas after the Stars came and invested in the programs.

The biggest issues for youth hockey in Houston present day is a lack of rinks (5 sheets of ice at 4 facilities spread out over a city of 7 million + people) makes it logistically difficult (competitive teams travel to play in a league run through the Dallas Stars primarily in Dallas) and ice cost $400-600 usd per hour making youth hockey costs a huge barrier. House hockey costs $1500 usd for casual hockey and travel hockey runs $7000-$10,000 usd all in when you factor in travel costs.

The hockey programs that do exist in Houston are great and the community is fantastic.
The hockey community in Houston is incredible. A group of committed people who have churned out some good players and great programs. It's heavily dependent on Canadians and people that have moved from the NE which isn't surprising. The grass roots growth of hockey in Houston just isn't there and big reason as you mention is the lack of rinks. The town used to have four good hockey facilities and one couldn't stay in business. Now we have 3 and a 4th which is a little sketchy.

I stand by my original comment that if you want a model for how hockey would do in Houston, you look at Dallas, Miami and Atlanta. The NHL was not always a rousing success in Dallas. There were many lean years where you could buy a ticket for a song and sit wherever you'd like. It took building a consistent winner to get some traction.

Other things to consider:

Houston is a very diverse city. Hockey is not a very diverse sport.

Houstonians love sports but their true love is football. High school and college football will get supported no matter what. We've seen the NFL leave once when the owner turned on the city and the Texans waiting list has now evaporated. Astros all Rockets all get supported when they win. Not so much in the down times. An NHL team would be an extreme version of that.

A comment was made that Houston would be a better hockey market than Seattle. No way. There is exponentially more minor hockey in Seattle, and Phoenix too for that matter. LV is a unique case. Pent up demand for pro sports that doesn't exist in Houston.

The chatter for an NHL team in Houston comes more from the internet than anyone with the $$'s to bring it here. Fertitta last made a comment over three years ago and even then he said the expansion fees were crazy and any Houston deal would have to make sense economically. The NHL has a vested interest in preserving their obscene expansion fees and better off propping up existing teams than do something that destroys that value the next time around. Which is evidenced by their actions in Phoenix.

I'd love hockey in Houston. It's a huge city and over the long haul you'd find a core market that would support it IMO. But it would be nothing like the LV and Seattle expansions and the explosion of season tickets. Which is why no one in Houston is too keen on paying some ridiculous price. So the Phoenix ownership group will have to exhaust every last option and then some before there is realistic chance of that team moving to Houston. IMO
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:13 PM   #178
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The NHL has a vested interest in preserving their obscene expansion fees and better off propping up existing teams than do something that destroys that value the next time around. Which is evidenced by their actions in Phoenix.

This was certainly true until SEA was finalized, but I'm not so sure anymore. I think the league/owners might be quite happy to get a few relocation fees (rumoured to be ~$200M)


It's not too long until they need to start playing the extortion game with a few cities like Anaheim, San Jose, Ottawa...it wouldn''t hurt to have a more recent example to point to.
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:14 PM   #179
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Craig Morgan today listed the Veterans Coliseum as the most likely interim destination for the Coyotes between the last year in Glendale and the opening of a future Tempe complex.

Also speculated they could look into playing out of Chase Field, similar to how the Lightning played a few seasons out of Tropicana Field in the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/craigsmorgan/sta...162384901?s=21
If they stay in Arizona, I wonder what the cost-benefits would be to completely re-brand the team. New name, new arena, and new city (sort of) could be a good opportunity to try and wipe the slate clean and lure fans that have avoided getting too attached due to all the drama.
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:21 PM   #180
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It's funny, I think the branding/logo/jerseys is by far the best thing about the Coyotes.

They're currently pivoting hard Kachina and will be introducing a white version of the jersey to wear full-time on the road this upcoming season. Can't see them moving away from that.
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