[PGT] Flames Blow Out Sens. BACK TO THE GYM!

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s only since the Vancouver trip that scoring has been a big issue. Before then they were averaging over 3 GPG, which is not bad.

Plus, those lines were actually not working well for the last part of last year, or at all in the POs. I think that was an issue for them. They thought the team was exposed. The “offensive eggs in one basket” was too easy to defend. I still think it’s not a good plan against a better team than Ottawa. It won’t work in the POs, IMO.

Even when those lines were ‘going good’ (the first 12 games before the Vancouver 4 game series) in those first 12 “good” games they were on pace for 20 fewer even stength goals over an 82 game season than the pace they had over 70 games last year. It was a baffling experiment as it was obviously less productive, they had one game against Edmonton where they scored 5 even strength goals. Outside of the Edmonton game those lines had one game where they scored more than 2 even strength goals in a game (the 4-3 SO victory where Tanev’s rocket from center ice helped the Flames to 3 even strength goals in that game). 19 out of 21 games with those lines the Flames had 2 goals or less at even strength with a goalie in the net. Numbers like that mean your goalie or your power play have to steal every game if you want to have a chance to win.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by N26

Because they were the lines on a mediocre team that lost in the 1st round.

I don't see anything in last year's offensive stats, counting and advanced, that are better than middle of the pack.

Explain to me why I should be happy with a return to status quo.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm have been mostly below average since the 2019 all star break and not a good #1 line. They are too easily neutralized.

Lucic-Bennett-Dube are a 6-game wonder. They were invisible today.

I think Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane are a good line and were good today but I am a little disappointed that Tkachuk seems to need Backlund so much. I want him to be elite. I want Backlund to need him.

I want a team that isn't less than the sum of it's parts.

As opposed to the first 21 games of this year, where they were below middle of the pack. Both in wins, and in ES goals.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by N26

Lucic-Bennett-Dube are a 6-game wonder. They were invisible today.

I think this is a little unfair. The Bennett line was okay today, and I thought had a few good looks in the offensive zone.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think this is a little unfair. The Bennett line was okay today, and I thought had a few good looks in the offensive zone.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Yeah I thought they were fine. Bennett was good in the faceoff circle too. As Cassie pointed out.

[Classic_Sniper]

That was more like it. Best game I've seen from the Flames this season and it wasn't even close. Sure there were mistakes and risks that could be dialled back, but that top 6 had that look in their eye that they could score at will. The switch this time last season boosted this team's game to the next level and I think it could happen again. With Markstrom in net this time, the Flames have time to make up some ground here. This is the first I've felt confident enough to say that this team could go on a run here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Even when those lines were ‘going good’ (the first 12 games before the Vancouver 4 game series) in those first 12 “good” games they were on pace for 20 fewer even stength goals over an 82 game season than the pace they had over 70 games last year. It was a baffling experiment as it was obviously less productive, they had one game against Edmonton where they scored 5 even strength goals. Outside of the Edmonton game those lines had one game where they scored more than 2 even strength goals in a game (the 4-3 SO victory where Tanev’s rocket from center ice helped the Flames to 3 even strength goals in that game). 19 out of 21 games with those lines the Flames had 2 goals or less at even strength with a goalie in the net. Numbers like that mean your goalie or your power play have to steal every game if you want to have a chance to win.

It’s not a “baffling experiment” because there was a good reason for doing it. The Flames are very easy to defend when they have only one scoring line. Arguably they stuck with it too long. I think the concept is sound, but the personnel is wrong - they need someone at least adequate on the Monahan RW and Lindholm and Tkachuk just don’t seem to gel that well.

If they go with the liens from last night into the stretch and the POs, IMO they will get beaten pretty easily.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by N26

Because they were the lines on a mediocre team that lost in the 1st round.

I don't see anything in last year's offensive stats, counting and advanced, that are better than middle of the pack.

Explain to me why I should be happy with a return to status quo.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm have been mostly below average since the 2019 all star break and not a good #1 line. They are too easily neutralized.

Lucic-Bennett-Dube are a 6-game wonder. They were invisible today.

I think Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane are a good line and were good today but I am a little disappointed that Tkachuk seems to need Backlund so much. I want him to be elite. I want Backlund to need him.

I want a team that isn't less than the sum of it's parts.

Flames 2019-2020


Prior to line up change:

Averaged 2.60 goals per game, good for 27th rank in NHL GF/GP (look familiar to this season)


Post line up change:

Averaged 4.07 goals per game, good for 2nd rank in NHL GF/GP


My memory on the dates could be a slightly bit off. But basically sometime in the first week of February, the top 6 went right back to what we saw today and this team looked absolutely automatic in scoring. I feel pretty confident in saying the real Flames could be back now if they stay healthy and with Markstrom in net. This regular season though, playoffs could be a different story; but that's for another day.

[N26]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

As opposed to the lines on a borderline bottom feeder

Yeah ok

Not defending the line blenders as much as I am criticizing returning to what hasn't worked nearly well enough before.

I am very disappointed that this team continues to be so much less than the sum of it's parts. Can't see how a return to anything from last year is something to be satisfied with.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s not a “baffling experiment” because there was a good reason for doing it. The Flames are very easy to defend when they have only one scoring line. Arguably they stuck with it too long. I think the concept is sound, but the personnel is wrong - they need someone at least adequate on the Monahan RW and Lindholm and Tkachuk just don’t seem to gel that well.

If they go with the liens from last night into the stretch and the POs, IMO they will get beaten pretty easily.

Well those lines were a lot easier to defend against in the playoffs after Tkachuk was hurt. Before that injury the Backlund line had 4 goals in 5 games at even strength against Winnipeg and Dallas. Historically the Mangiapane Backlund Tkachuk line has produced perfectly acceptable offence from a 2nd line perspective, if anything it is the disappearance of the first line, including Lindholm, that has been the problem in the playoffs.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Flames 2019-2020


Prior to line up change:

Averaged 2.60 goals per game, good for 27th rank in NHL GF/GP (look familiar to this season)


Post line up change:

Averaged 4.07 goals per game, good for 2nd rank in NHL GF/GP


My memory on the dates could be a slightly bit off. But basically sometime in the first week of February, the top 6 went right back to what we saw today and this team looked absolutely automatic in scoring. I feel pretty confident in saying the real Flames could be back now if they stay healthy and with Markstrom in net. This regular season though, playoffs could be a different story; but that's for another day.

I don’t think your dates are correct at all. In 2019-20 the Flames started off with the usual G-M-L line. Lindholm was never apart from Gaudreau at all. Quarters 2 and 3 he still played with them, but they also tried him down the middle with Tkachuk a small amount of the time, with Backlund moved to RW. At the end they went back to full time G-M-L. And Lindholm and Gaudreau’s production actually was about the same the whole year. Monahan’s dipped in Q3 pretty badly.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...ohnny-gaudreau

[GioforPM]

The Flames game log from 19-20:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/tea...0_gamelog.html

I really only see one stretch in January where they were a little lower, but even there they had 5 out of 10 with 3 goals or more.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Flames game log from 19-20:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/tea...0_gamelog.html

I really only see one stretch in January where they were a little lower, but even there they had 5 out of 10 with 3 goals or more.

Those game logs really show how bad these lines were this year compared to last year.

Last year the Flames scored 3 or more even strength goals 29 times in 70 games (41.4% of the time)

This year they have done it 3 times (twice scoring 3 on a goalie and once scoring the third goal on an empty net) in 21 games before today (14.3% of the time).

The lines last year were 3 times as likely to score 3 or more goals at even strength in a game compared to the lines they tried this year.

Other teams in our division have scored 3 or more even strength goals at a rate much higher than the Flames this year, similar to the rate the Flames scored at in previous years

Jets - 10 times
Oilers - 12 times
Canucks - 9 times
Sens - 6 times
Leafs - 8 times
Habs - 8 times

In a division where everyone scores 5 on 5, the Flames were the only team unable to. I strongly suspect that will change and the Flames will be much more productive 5 on 5 now that the coach has gone back to the logical lines.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think your dates are correct at all. In 2019-20 the Flames started off with the usual G-M-L line. Lindholm was never apart from Gaudreau at all. Quarters 2 and 3 he still played with them, but they also tried him down the middle with Tkachuk a small amount of the time, with Backlund moved to RW. At the end they went back to full time G-M-L. And Lindholm and Gaudreau’s production actually was about the same the whole year. Monahan’s dipped in Q3 pretty badly.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...ohnny-gaudreau

Most of what you posted looks right, but there was definitive struggles earlier in the year which as you said lead to Backlund moving to the wing with Monahan centering and Lindholm lining up with Tkachuk and Mangiapane.

But based on the story that was told by the coach, some of the players came up to Ward and asked to have some line up changes made. For instance, Backlund didn't want to play wing anymore, so Ward moved him back to center with Tkachuk and Mangiapane and the rest is history. Backlund went on a tear, scored at a ppg pace with his new linemates and really drove the bus for a month and a half. That's the iteration of the top 6 I'm talking about.

Regardless, we're ultimately still talking about a huge uptick in goals and I have feeling this team will continue their high scoring ways with the changes.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Flames 2019-2020


Prior to line up change:

Averaged 2.60 goals per game, good for 27th rank in NHL GF/GP (look familiar to this season)


Post line up change:

Averaged 4.07 goals per game, good for 2nd rank in NHL GF/GP


My memory on the dates could be a slightly bit off. But basically sometime in the first week of February, the top 6 went right back to what we saw today and this team looked absolutely automatic in scoring. I feel pretty confident in saying the real Flames could be back now if they stay healthy and with Markstrom in net. This regular season though, playoffs could be a different story; but that's for another day.

Exactly. Need to get to the playoffs first.

People saying these lines won't work in the playoffs are just people making excuses for Ward having no clue what he's doing.

Run these lines and take a playoff matchup as it comes.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Exactly. Need to get to the playoffs first.

People saying these lines won't work in the playoffs are just people making excuses for Ward having no clue what he's doing.

Run these lines and take a playoff matchup as it comes.

Yep. Markstrom got the Nucks past the first round. He can do it for this team if they get there.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Most of what you posted looks right, but there was definitive struggles earlier in the year which as you said lead to Backlund moving to the wing with Monahan centering and Lindholm lining up with Tkachuk and Mangiapane.

But based on the story that was told by the coach, some of the players came up to Ward and asked to have some line up changes made. For instance, Backlund didn't want to play wing anymore, so Ward moved him back to center with Tkachuk and Mangiapane and the rest is history. Backlund went on a tear, scored at a ppg pace with his new linemates and really drove the bus for a month and a half. That's the iteration of the top 6 I'm talking about.

Regardless, we're ultimately still talking about a huge uptick in goals and I have feeling this team will continue their high scoring ways with the changes.

And we now have the Lucic-Bennett-Dube line which can play. Add to that Mangiapane stepping up his game and our three lines could improve YOY with player progression.

[Jeff Lebowski]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1365773692744175616

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Those game logs really show how bad these lines were this year compared to last year.

Last year the Flames scored 3 or more even strength goals 29 times in 70 games (41.4% of the time)

This year they have done it 3 times (twice scoring 3 on a goalie and once scoring the third goal on an empty net) in 21 games before today (14.3% of the time).

The lines last year were 3 times as likely to score 3 or more goals at even strength in a game compared to the lines they tried this year.

Well earlier in the season the Flames were struggling to score. They even gave up considerably more goals then they scored at the time. But post changes, they scored 4+ goals per game and were surrendering less. I believe Backlund is the secret to this team winning and losing, him being at his absolute 2 way best makes a massive difference.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

And we now have the Lucic-Bennett-Dube line which can play. Add to that Mangiapane stepping up his game and our three lines could improve YOY with player progression.

Precisely, this is the most confident I've been this season. You can't fake chemistry and these lines have proven chemistry. We'll see how they do in the playoffs, but as you said, gotta get there first.

[FBI]

new lines good
more score goals