WCQF: Vegas Golden Knights (1) vs Chicago Blackhawks (8) (Vegas wins 4-1)

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Again, they weren't gifted a contender. It's easy for you to say this in hindsight, but at the time no one was saying that.

https://www.knightsonice.com/2018/4/...golden-knights

No, they were gifted a contender.

3 years in the league, a 0.576 win %, two division titles, about to win their 4th playoff series out of 6, the other two they lost in 7 games and they've been to the Cup finals already.

That's a contender.

They didn't get that contender by building through the entry draft like everyone else. They got it by being allowed to steal good players from every other team in the league.

It doesn't matter what everybody thought, before, during or after. Everybody was wrong.

The team is a contender, and it wasn't built the way a contender should be built. It was gifted to them.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

this is what you said during the draft:



I think you've revised your recollection of the draft after guys like Marchessault, Karlsson, Schmidt, Theodore, Tuch, Smith blew up. On their own teams they were Bennett/Kylington/Mangiapane types. Guys that bubble teams didn't feel were worth elevating up the lineup (or in Marchessault's case, an expected one-hit-wonder)

I've said it 1000 times already in this discussion. I was wrong. So were most people. The team is a contender, and they were gifted it off every other teams hard work and years of building their own teams. Vegas didn't build their contender through the draft, they got it gift wrapped to them.

The NHL didn't want a bottom feeding expansion team, so they relaxed the rules. Understandable, butobviously they over did it, because Vegas is a contender right out of the gate and none of the players on that team were drafted and developed by them. It isn't right.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

this is what you said during the draft:



I think you've revised your recollection of the draft after guys like Marchessault, Karlsson, Schmidt, Theodore, Tuch, Smith blew up. On their own teams they were Bennett/Kylington/Mangiapane types. Guys that bubble teams didn't feel were worth elevating up the lineup (or in Marchessault's case, an expected one-hit-wonder)

sure but even getting 30 (affordable and young) Bennett/Kylington/Mangiapane types would be miles ahead of what any other expansion team has ever been granted


keep15 of them, trade the other 15 for picks or more expensive star players and you are well on your way


and with 30 of them (yes I realize not every team exposed a player of this ilk) then some of them will blow up

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I've said it 1000 times already in this discussion. I was wrong. So were most people. The team is a contender, and they were gifted it off every other teams hard work and years of building their own teams. Vegas didn't build their contender through the draft, they got it gift wrapped to them.

They selected what each team felt was their 8th best forward or 5th best D or backup goaltender.

They still had to scout these players up themselves through the pro ranks. Take Karlsson for example. He had six goals and nineteen assists in 81 games in his final season with the CBJ. Vegas took a chance on a player that they obviously felt was more than a 25 point player. I don't think they were gifted their number one center - they scouted him and put him in a position to succeed. The same can apply to most of their roster.

I will say that teams like Winnipeg and Florirda gifted them assets, but that's not on the league, that's on those teams for their incompetence.

[FlamesAddiction]

Vegas also benefited greatly by using the new expansion draft protection rules to leverage teams into trading assets to essentially give them more protection. That idea never sat well with me.

IIRC, the previous expansion drafts had a rule that if a player was selected in the expansion draft, that player could not be traded back to their old team until Jan.1 the following calendar year. I could be wrong about that, but I seem to recall some talk about that when the Sens came into the league. The NHL kyboshed that and went the extra step in allowing them to make the deals before the draft even occurred. The protection rules helped them build a decent team, but the trade rule changes allowed them to collect tradeable assets.

But you have to acknowledge and respect the ability of the people running the Vegas organization to identify talent and make the most of what they were given. I guess we will see with the Kraken, but I don't see it necessarily playing out the same way. All in all, I think it is a good thing to not have terrible expansion teams.

[Coach]

I have no problem with the Knights early success. A way better thing for the league than having yet another sunbelt team that sucks for years on end drawing no fans and becoming a laughing stock. Would that have been a better thing for you guys?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by looooob

sure but even getting 30 (affordable and young) Bennett/Kylington/Mangiapane types would be miles ahead of what any other expansion team has ever been granted

That's because the global talent pool and general grassroots level development is miles ahead of where previous expansion teams were. If anything, what is says is that this expansion draft came too late relative to teams getting deeper.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

They selected what each team felt was their 8th best forward or 5th best D or backup goaltender.

.

in most cases it was another teams 4th best D (you could protect 3), if you protected 4 you only protected 4 forwards


I realize not every team is the Flames but a huge difference between a 4th d and a 5th or 6th D


now I realize they still took Engelland for reasons that made sense to them, but really if you can start a season with all number 4 dmen you aren't going to be awesome (usually) but its 3rd pairs that get your teeth kicked in- if you don't have to roll those guys you are starting already in good shape- aren't you?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Coach

I have no problem with the Knights early success. A way better thing for the league than having yet another sunbelt team that sucks for years on end drawing no fans and becoming a laughing stock. Would that have been a better thing for you guys?

Why would I care about that?

I'm a biased Flames fan, so yeah I'd rather not have the new expansion team come in and cave the Flames faces in over and over again from the beginning.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

No, they were gifted a contender.

3 years in the league, a 0.576 win %, two division titles, about to win their 4th playoff series out of 6, the other two they lost in 7 games and they've been to the Cup finals already.

That's a contender.

They didn't get that contender by building through the entry draft like everyone else. They got it by being allowed to steal good players from every other team in the league.

It doesn't matter what everybody thought, before, during or after. Everybody was wrong.

The team is a contender, and it wasn't built the way a contender should be built. It was gifted to them.

technically they paid 100s of millions of dollars for it

[Roof-Daddy]

You guys arguing that Vegas didn't get gifted a contender, if you had the option to disperse this Flames roster into the league and then rebuild the Flames using the same rules Vegas had when they built their team, can you honestly say you wouldn't do it?

I know I would. In a heart beat.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

technically they paid 100s of millions of dollars for it

Again, no they didn't. They paid that money to get an NHL franchise, not to be gifted a contender.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Coach

I have no problem with the Knights early success. A way better thing for the league than having yet another sunbelt team that sucks for years on end drawing no fans and becoming a laughing stock. Would that have been a better thing for you guys?

Honestly, the league is lucky that interest didn't disappear in places like San Jose, Ottawa, Nashville, Tampa and Columbus due to the expansion suckage they endured. Most of which, are proving to be really strong markets. Who knows, but maybe the Thrashers would still be around if they were a little more competitive from the start.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Again, no they didn't. They paid that money to get an NHL franchise, not to be gifted a contender.

but part of the argument for a higher entry fee was to not have to start so far down in a hole - no one was suggesting (or intending) to gift them a contender (that just happened), but getting them off to a MUCH better start than past expansion teams was definitely a conscious decision.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by looooob

in most cases it was another teams 4th best D (you could protect 3), if you protected 4 you only protected 4 forwards


I realize not every team is the Flames but a huge difference between a 4th d and a 5th or 6th D


now I realize they still took Engelland for reasons that made sense to them, but really if you can start a season with all number 4 dmen you aren't going to be awesome (usually) but its 3rd pairs that get your teeth kicked in- if you don't have to roll those guys you are starting already in good shape- aren't you?

Technically you're right, but here were the defensemen they took

Schmidt - was playing on Washington's 3rd pair.

Miller - was playing on Boston's 3rd pair

TvD - was playing on Chicago's 3rd pair

Griffin Reinhart - lol Oilers

McNabb - was playing on L.A.'s 3rd pair

Emelin - you can probably call him a 4 at the time, I don't remember. But they didn't even feel he was worth keeping and they flipped him.

Merill - was playing on NJ's 3rd pair

Methot - we can definitely call him a top 4 D, but they flipped him right away

Schlemko - bottom pairing defenseman

Garrison - cap dump, Tampa sent Gusev and some picks with him as an incentive

Theodore - split the season with Anaheim and the AHL. Wasn't trusted to play any higher than 3rd pair. Almost the closest Kylington parallel we've got.

Engelland - was playing on Calgary's 3rd pair

Sbisa - not a top 4 dman regardless of anything else

[FlamesAddiction]

The other thing to remember too, is that high profile free agents use to avoid expansion teams like the plague. Due to the salary cap and, well because it is Vegas, that didn't happen this time around.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That's because the global talent pool and general grassroots level development is miles ahead of where previous expansion teams were. If anything, what is says is that this expansion draft came too late relative to teams getting deeper.

that and the rules evolved


I haven't looked through every draft but Nashville for example the default protection roster was 1 G 5 D 9 F, versus vegas 1 G 3D 7 F (each had variant protection rules if you wanted to save either another goalie or D)


but getting a teams 6th D or 10th F versus 4th D/8th F that is not a subtle difference I don't think?



combined with a cap and earlier free agency age they just had way more open to them than past years (probably fairly , old expansion teams generally sucked- but that was understood )


anyways none of this to say that Vegas wasn' t also very skilled at what they pulled off (better than most thought) and a bit lucky, but it was pretty clear they (and Seattle) were given a pretty good situation for their $$

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

but part of the argument for a higher entry fee was to not have to start so far down in a hole - no one was suggesting (or intending) to gift them a contender (that just happened), but getting them off to a MUCH better start than past expansion teams was definitely a conscious decision.

Yeah, it was a little from column A and a little from column B. The NHL didn't want to disrupt the parity and wanted them to at least be competitive, therefore they were given some advantages. No one saw Vegas being able to capitalize on it the way they did. That part was due to the talented management and scouting they have.

[BarDown]

I think Vegas' management group deserves a ton of credit for building the team they did. Saying they were gifted a top team isn't accurate. There's no question that they had advantages that other expansion teams did not. However, they still had to pick from the 8th or 9th best players on each team, and fit them into a cap-compliant, competitive roster.

In retrospect, exempting Vegas from the Seattle expansion draft was unnecessary and generous. A mechanism likely should have been put in place such that Vegas lost its exempt status if it qualified for the playoffs in the seasons leading up to Seattle's draft.

I can't think of a principled reason to exempt a playoff-calibre team from the expansion draft simply on the basis that they are also a new club.

[Enoch Root]

Engelland is a good example for the entire team - a $6 guy (many felt 7) who goes to Vegas and suddenly becomes a stalwart top 4 guy.

Things just all came together for the Knights in so many ways that no one could have predicted. It just happened.