Kale Kessy severely injured in AHL fight- is it time to stop the music?

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

THe league doesn't, the independent arbitrator does. Usually the guy that the NHLPA asks for.

I stand to be corrected on this, but I believe the arbitrator is someone that has been approved by both the league and the NHLPA. However, once the arbitrator makes a decision that goes against their position, the losing side typically stops approving them and they no longer arbitrate in NHL/NHLPA issues.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I often wonder how many in the pro-fighting brigade have been in fights.

It’s funny because I’ve quite often wondered the reverse. I’d never try to convince anyone that fighting can’t hurt you. However in my own anecdotal experiences with fighting (playing growing up, briefly fighting amateur out of my gym, stupid childhood fights etc.) I’d guess I’ve been in 30 or more fights. I broke my hand once and nose twice. That’s it.

On the flip side I’ve had two concussions. One came from running and slipping on ice. The second I ran face first into a fully kicked ball in soccer. Knocked me clean out. I’m very certain that the people who are so against fighting don’t realize that ecspecially in hockey so many other things are WAY more likely to give you a concussion. It’s click bait really any time this stuff happens and the anti-fighting crowd who I’d largely assume have never fought and view it as barbaric come out with the pitch forks. Anyways just my two cents and personal experiences. Seems to be an issue where people have their side and want to think what they think I don’t expect to suddenly change anyone’s minds.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

I’m very certain that the people who are so against fighting don’t realize that ecspecially in hockey so many other things are WAY more likely to give you a concussion. It’s click bait really any time this stuff happens and the anti-fighting crowd who I’d largely assume have never fought and view it as barbaric come out with the pitch forks. Anyways just my two cents and personal experiences. Seems to be an issue where people have their side and want to think what they think I don’t expect to suddenly change anyone’s minds.

I don't think this is true. Or rather, this is not something that we know enough about to say one way or the other. Yes, players suffer concussions from big hits, but what is the difference in frequency, intensity, and long-term effects from those endured from hits to the head in a fight? I can't help but notice that this issue has become so pronounced in recent years because of premature and tragic deaths of several NHL players with well-worn reputations for fighting. What evidence is there to suggest that hitting is any more dangerous?

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

It’s funny because I’ve quite often wondered the reverse. I’d never try to convince anyone that fighting can’t hurt you. However in my own anecdotal experiences with fighting (playing growing up, briefly fighting amateur out of my gym, stupid childhood fights etc.) I’d guess I’ve been in 30 or more fights. I broke my hand once and nose twice. That’s it.

On the flip side I’ve had two concussions. One came from running and slipping on ice. The second I ran face first into a fully kicked ball in soccer. Knocked me clean out. I’m very certain that the people who are so against fighting don’t realize that ecspecially in hockey so many other things are WAY more likely to give you a concussion. It’s click bait really any time this stuff happens and the anti-fighting crowd who I’d largely assume have never fought and view it as barbaric come out with the pitch forks. Anyways just my two cents and personal experiences. Seems to be an issue where people have their side and want to think what they think I don’t expect to suddenly change anyone’s minds.

But no one is claiming that most concussions come from fighting. This keeps coming up - but that's not the point being made.
The point is that it is an unnecessary part of the game, that largely is already going away, and adds to the concussion risk.
It's about removing the stuff you don't need that adds risk.
The purpose of fighting is literally to throw fists at someone's head. If the NHL is serious about preventing head injuries, then they should be making logical steps to remove that.

[Flash Walken]

The two things that I feel we've found out about the impact of fighting in the last while are:

1) Concussions are not the only measure of whether head trauma is occuring. Sub concussive blows are a significant factor in the development of brain injuries:

The third finding of note was that BVS, “detected changes in cognitive processing speeds at the end of the season for players who did not receive any concussion diagnoses, implicating sub-concussive effects.”

Dr. Shaun Fickling of SFU, the lead author on the study, said that players who had not been diagnosed with concussions showed “decreased cognitive processing speed post season — thought to be the result of ‘sub-concussive impacts.’” Fickling did also suggest that these readings could be the result of concussions which were not diagnosed.

This is not the first study to link sub-concussive blows to changes in brain function. In January 2018, Boston University School of Medicine released a study that showed repeated sub-concussive blows can, like concussions, cause chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE).

2) The psychological / emotional toll that prescribed violence has on some players is injurious to their health and shows up most prominently as substance use among the most frequent combatants.

Clune explains that his problems with drugs and alcohol stemmed from existing in a constant state of fear. “I put on a mask to deal with the fear,” he states, explaining that once you get drafted to the OHL as a sixteen year old, you forced to be part of a culture which involves heavy drinking and constantly being surrounded by men. Clune talks about putting on a mask to deal with the state of fear. “You put on the mask, and it never goes away. When you get drafted, you put on the mask to deal with the pressure of getting a contract. When you get your contract, you put on the mask to deal with the sleepless night before you know you have to go out and drop the gloves with the 6’5” monster on the other team. When you finally pull on that NHL sweater, you put on the mask to deal with that ever-present fear that it could all go away in an instant.” Clune says.

One day, he woke up and realized he had had enough. He writes that he wished he had arrived at the realization earlier, when his parents and the assistant General Manager of the Los Angeles Kings Ron Hextall asked him to get help. “A lot of guys never got so lucky. We have lost too many of them over the years to the darkness of depression and drug abuse and alcoholism,” he says.

Several other players in the NHL (both past and present) have suffered from problems involving alcohol and drug abuse, but most have not and will never open up about it. Luckily, Clune is one of the few athletes who have been able to come forward with his story, and hopefully will now be able to serve as an outlet for other players who do suffer from the same problems he once suffered from, and help them on the path to recovery.

Derek Boogaard, a notable 6’7”, 265lb left-winger who played for the Minnesota Wild and the New York Rangers, was considered to be one of the most intimidating players in the NHL. Boogaard was found dead in his bed after overdosing on a mixture of alcohol and prescription Percocet. While his death may have been accidental, other issues were raised on how the situation may have been prevented. Boogaard’s father expressed concerns to the NHL about the way Derek’s drug abuse had been handled, and maybe even enabled, by the two teams he played for.

Two other players, Rick Rypien and Wade Belak, were also both found dead within a four-month span following the death of Boogaard. Rypien was playing for the Vancouver Canucks but was then assigned to their minor team, the Manitoba Moose. A few months later, he signed to the Winnipeg Jets, and had another shot to play in the NHL, but soon after was found dead in his home in August 2011.

The deaths forced past enforcers of the NHL and sportswriters to question the role of ‘the enforcer’ and how the league was dealing with the stress of the position. An enforcer generally plays the role of the intimidator for their respective team, and is known to be the fighter and instigator. Another well known enforcer of the NHL, Georges Laraque stated that he never liked being in the position he was in, something that Clune also agreed with, but they both made careers serving the same role.

So now that the enforcer role is gone, maybe it's time to examine the role of fighting altogether.

What must it be like for a guy like Lucic to be so publicly shamed for not engaging in fights as the de facto pugilist for this team? What an awful experience it must be knowing you need to fight in the eyes of the team and fans in order to continue to live your dream and support your family?

What an upsetting existence that must be. What kind of savages are we to demand that of someone in the name of 'sport'?

It has no place in the modern game, imo.

[PeteMoss]

I am anti-fighting and anti-head shots, but at this point - it's pretty well all out of the game at the NHL and junior level.

The leagues have done a good job getting rid of this stuff. There is what - two relatively regular guys in the entire league who basically does very little but fight (Johnston on NYI, Haley on NYR) and even those guys don't fight very often. There has been very few headshot issues this year.

There are sins in the past and lots of guys who unfortunately paid the price, but you can't change that now.

Just feels like beating a dead horse at this point.

[MoneyGuy]

Yes.

The contrary argument is that a violent sport needs a way to exact retribution. Football is more violent and they can’t fight.

If the game is reffed properly fighting isn’t necessary. Big if? It can be done.

[PepsiFree]

I’m less worried about the future of fighting, which is being and will continue to be removed from the sport, than I am about the state of those holding Jiri accountable for advocating listening to the science. Such emotional, antagonistic responses to logic in support of (checks notes) watching two random guys punch each other in the face until one of them hits the ice.

As soon as support for fighting became exclusively the realm of traditionalists and aggressive, anti-science, anti-health advocates, it was already doomed.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

It’s funny because I’ve quite often wondered the reverse. I’d never try to convince anyone that fighting can’t hurt you. However in my own anecdotal experiences with fighting (playing growing up, briefly fighting amateur out of my gym, stupid childhood fights etc.) I’d guess I’ve been in 30 or more fights. I broke my hand once and nose twice. That’s it.

On the flip side I’ve had two concussions. One came from running and slipping on ice. The second I ran face first into a fully kicked ball in soccer. Knocked me clean out. I’m very certain that the people who are so against fighting don’t realize that ecspecially in hockey so many other things are WAY more likely to give you a concussion. It’s click bait really any time this stuff happens and the anti-fighting crowd who I’d largely assume have never fought and view it as barbaric come out with the pitch forks. Anyways just my two cents and personal experiences. Seems to be an issue where people have their side and want to think what they think I don’t expect to suddenly change anyone’s minds.

Are those things way more likely to give you a concussion?

You've gotten 2 concussions, one from walking on ice, and one from a regular part of soccer, both of which are things you've done a LOT more than 30 times.

On the flip side you've been injured in 10% of the fights you've been in. That is a pretty high injury rate.

Will taking fighting out of the game reduce most of the concussions or injuries? No, but it'll take out one of the parts of the game with the highest RATE of injury or concussion.

Just because something doesn't account for an absolute higher number of concussions or injuries doesn't mean it's not the most dangerous part of the game, and it doesn't mean that other parts of the game are "WAY more likely to give you a concussion".

[GioforPM]

In addition to being punched in the head there’s a non-insignificant chance of falling on the ice in a fight and hitting your head (or also injuring a shoulder).