Cartoons upset Danish Muslims

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Well obviously you have something against all religions. I am however, tryign to think of the last time Catholics in any part of thw world killing people because they were non-believers.. or because they were upset... In fact, the anti-religious are sounding alot less tolerant towards religion as the very religions are about them non-believing.
think about that.

Theres a little country near Britain called Ireland. Its got a bunch o red heads and two distict religions. Catholics are one of em.

[jonesy]

Here is my view. I'll start with an analogy. In Christendom, there is a commandment to not take the Lord's name in vain.

For the purpose of this arguement, I will just use CP as an example, since we are all familiar with it, and examples should be easy to verify.

There are instances in many threads of taking the Lord's name in vain, either verbatim, dancing, funny spelling and even on a popsicle stick(!!)

I won't say I am insulted, since that accomplishes nothing, but it does make me feel very uncomfortable. I wish the filter would be applied as I consider it far worse than any cusses. I love that guy, you know?

Now for my point:
1. I can't enforce my beliefs on those who do this
2. The name means nothing to non Christians, they probably don't even realize they are making me squirm
3. If I heard a fellow believer doing this, then I certainly should mention it to them.

And to tie it in with the cartoon:
1. Muslims have a right to be angry at other Muslims who make Muhommad images
2. Muslims should not care if others make Muhommad images.

Now, for our recessional hymm, please turn to page 235

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Nope, but I'll probably get my face punched in. And comments of such nature would never be allowed in any newspaper, so why is it acceptable to insult others?

I think that newspaper is getting the equivalent of it's face punched in, so all is well in the world.

Comments of such nature are allowed in newspapers. Insults are allowed in the newspaper. If they want to publish insults to Asians, Natives, homosexuals, or white males 18-49, they can do it. I'm sure there are newspapers in Europe that do insult Asians. I'm sure you could dig up something from the Calgary Sun that a homosexual would find offensive. Same with Natives.

People bitch all the time about what's in the paper. Rarely, if ever, is the insult made in such a blatant and even contrived fashion and the bitching isn't done with such gusto as in this case, but it does happen.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Well obviously you have something against all religions. I am however, tryign to think of the last time Catholics in any part of thw world killing people because they were non-believers.. or because they were upset... In fact, the anti-religious are sounding alot less tolerant towards religion as the very religions are about them non-believing.
think about that.

I don't have anything against any religion. It's so-called "religious" people that cause the problems.

Looking for a recent example of Catholics killing people?? Well the Catholics and Protestants of Northern Ireland were at it quite recently.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Well obviously you have something against all religions. I am however, tryign to think of the last time Catholics in any part of thw world killing people because they were non-believers.. or because they were upset... In fact, the anti-religious are sounding alot less tolerant towards religion as the very religions are about them non-believing.
think about that.

I think the "anti religious" as you call them are finally speaking out about the intolerance and stupidity of religion. Atheists or Humanists have not been known to create waves at all. Can the same be said for the religious towards non-believers?
There are some awesome quotes in the Christian bible...those people that are religious often tell us to read the ten commandments and learn partly not to judge our religious brethren. The problem is that most Atheists were raised by religious parents and or are scholars in various industries and by matter of fault tend to study things thoroughly anyways. (Im not suggesting that religious folks dont have scholars themselves).
Some of the better quotes in the bible are these...and there are literally thousands of beautys like these....and for these reasons religion is falling off the map in the western hemisphere as people become educated and aware of the fallacy and control that religion carries.

Leviticus 21:9
Levticus 27
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Deuteronomy 21: 18-21
Exodus 21: 7-10

When watching the newscasts and seeing the Muslims that are outraged and acting in a violent manner, do they strike you as educated people? Do they strike you as people who have been given choices or have had the opportunity to explore other ideas?

[Hack&Lube]

I liked this story:

The wave swept many in the region. Sheik Muhammed Abu Zaid, an imam from the Lebanese town of Saida, said he began hearing of the caricatures from several Palestinian friends visiting from Denmark in December but made little of it.

"For me, honestly, this didn't seem so important," Abu Zaid said, comparing the drawings to those made of Jesus Christ in Christian countries.

"I thought, I know that this is something typical in such countries," he recalled.

Then, he started to hear that ambassadors of Arab countries had tried to meet with the prime minister of Denmark and had been snubbed, and he began to feel differently.

"It started to seem that this way of thinking was an insult to us," he said. "It is fine to say, `This is our freedom, this is our way of thinking.' But we began to believe that their freedom was something that hurts us."

I think most hardline Muslims have to realize like this guy, that cartoons are a tradition entrenched in western journalism and political culture as a way of hitting at abstract ideas in a direct and appealing manner and other religions don't lash back so violently against similar caricatures. This is the first time I've read something from an imam that understands this point.

Of course, his response to the diplomatic snubs leads to what many Muslims believe to be a conspiracy theory or at least culture of superiority and humilation shown toward the Muslim world.

As for Cheese's point that "The problem is that most Atheists were raised by religious parents", I think it's true. Reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson's latest article in the Times which has nothing to do with this at all but he's fun to read.

"There's a lot of political posturing about the future of education right now, all of which seems to miss the point: that at school, children should be encouraged to study books that make reading fun.

And it's the same story with religion. Because I was forced into chapel every Sunday, and made to read the Bible, which is even more excruciating than Paradise Lost, I emerged from the chrysalis of puberty filled with a sometimes overwhelming desire to set fire to the Archbishop of Canterbury." (yes I am probably falling into that catagory without the pyromaniac aspect).

Yet those verses that Cheese point out are usually explained by Christian apologists as being more a product of cultural and not divine rationale as the Bible should not be read literally or out of historical context for certain elements. Which is why I think God should send us some new drivers, a firmware update, and new PDFs.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

And it's the same story with religion. Because I was forced into chapel every Sunday, and made to read the Bible, which is even more excruciating than Paradise Lost, I emerged from the chrysalis of puberty filled with a sometimes overwhelming desire to set fire to the Archbishop of Canterbury." (yes I am probably falling into that catagory without the pyromaniac aspect).

Yet those verses that Cheese point out are usually explained by Christian apologists as being more a product of cultural and not divine rationale as the Bible should not be read literally or out of historical context for certain elements. Which is why I think God should send us some new drivers, a firmware update, and new PDFs.

There have been major human rights conflicts throughout history in which both or all sides quoted extensively from the Bible to support their positions. This has happened over human slavery, women's suffrage, the use of contraceptives, the roles and status of women, female ordination, how to discipline children, racial segregation, inter-racial marriage, abortion access, religious tolerance, equal rights for gays and lesbians, same-sex marriage, etc. One of the reasons why emotions currently run particularly high in North America on topics like abortion and homosexuality is that many Christians on all sides of the issues sincerely believe that the Bible supports their viewpoint. They believe that they have interpreted the Bible correctly and have assessed the will of God on the matter.Many feel assured that God agrees with their beliefs, and that they are acting as a type of agent for God on earth.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Leviticus 21:9
Levticus 27
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Deuteronomy 21: 18-21
Exodus 21: 7-10

Pretty hilarious stuff in there. Kind of funny that people many years ago took this stuff seriously (not to mention some still do).

The way I see it, even if there is a hell, looks like it'll be me, my buddies, some heavy metal bands, and a whole bunch of porn stars down there.

Would be a pretty sweet party.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Pretty hilarious stuff in there. Kind of funny that people many years ago took this stuff seriously (not to mention some still do).

The way I see it, even if there is a hell, looks like it'll be me, my buddies, some heavy metal bands, and a whole bunch of porn stars down there.

Would be a pretty sweet party.

That's what everyone thinks until they realise that Jean Chretien runs the place....

[Muta]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Pretty hilarious stuff in there. Kind of funny that people many years ago took this stuff seriously (not to mention some still do).

The way I see it, even if there is a hell, looks like it'll be me, my buddies, some heavy metal bands, and a whole bunch of porn stars down there.

Would be a pretty sweet party.

Minus the pitchforks in your butt and Satan's dong-awful breath.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Theres a little country near Britain called Ireland. Its got a bunch o red heads and two distict religions. Catholics are one of em.

The Irish conflict is only religious in nature in name only. The thing goes way deeper than Orange Protestants versus Catholics. Way way deeper.

[Muta]

Interesting article, that looks at more of what the reaction is internationally.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...sts/index.html

Again, the '...Death to Israel, Death to America...' chants described are related to the Danish cartoon situation, how?

People sure like to lay blame... as long as it isn't on themselves.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cheese

There have been major human rights conflicts throughout history in which both or all sides quoted extensively from the Bible to support their positions. This has happened over human slavery, women's suffrage, the use of contraceptives, the roles and status of women, female ordination, how to discipline children, racial segregation, inter-racial marriage, abortion access, religious tolerance, equal rights for gays and lesbians, same-sex marriage, etc. One of the reasons why emotions currently run particularly high in North America on topics like abortion and homosexuality is that many Christians on all sides of the issues sincerely believe that the Bible supports their viewpoint. They believe that they have interpreted the Bible correctly and have assessed the will of God on the matter.Many feel assured that God agrees with their beliefs, and that they are acting as a type of agent for God on earth.

You can say the same thing about any major document of law, politics, or science in history. "Hey, I interpret the Constitution in a way that means slavery is legal - the Constitution must be right!" or "the current science of eugenics says that we should sterilize the mentally ill - science must be right!"

Hell, there's probably someone who would quote Cheese to backup a point.

In the end, people will just never agree on anything. Even some humanists believe there is some kind of natural law that trumps legalism, positivism, science, whatever. Personally, I'll go with Hobbes. We're just all fighting each other and we try to be civilized (whether that means construct of law, society, religion, or even science) just so we don't kill each other...and by that I mean all kill each other compared to what's happening right now. Wish I could fast forward 300 years and see how all this West vs Islam clash of civilizations thing turns out.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by peter12

The Irish conflict is only religious in nature in name only. The thing goes way deeper than Orange Protestants versus Catholics. Way way deeper.

Not really...the ongoing conflict in Ireland stem from the great clash between Papist Catholicism and Protestant reform. Oliver Cromwell originally invaded Ireland to prevent Catholic Spain from using it as a staging base to invade England (the wind blows from Ireland to England), and to stem Catholic rebellion...

Protestant and Catholic cultism is at the heart of the cultural, political and religious differences between the two "tribes" and the fanaticism of religion fuels the hate...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

Not really...the ongoing conflict in Ireland stem from the great clash between Papist Catholicism and Protestant reform. Oliver Cromwell originally invaded Ireland to prevent Catholic Spain from using it as a staging base to invade England (the wind blows from Ireland to England), and to stem Catholic rebellion...

Protestant and Catholic cultism is at the heart of the cultural, political and religious differences between the two "tribes" and the fanaticism of religion fuels the hate...

Or the great economic divide. Money drives all conflict, not God.

[Jayems]

Heres whats going to happen... The world will treat these islamics like a parent who is too scared to punish or reprimand their kid. So, to shut them up, they will bow down, and give the feeling that they can just do whatever they want.

God im ****ed about this. Thank god the editor is taking a solid "f.u.! It's Free speech beotch!" stance.

They think they can't be insulted? But carry on insulting the jews and israel in general, and the enemy westerners? Yet... they want an apology from these "enemy" westerners?

F.U.!

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

Not really...the ongoing conflict in Ireland stem from the great clash between Papist Catholicism and Protestant reform. Oliver Cromwell originally invaded Ireland to prevent Catholic Spain from using it as a staging base to invade England (the wind blows from Ireland to England), and to stem Catholic rebellion...

Protestant and Catholic cultism is at the heart of the cultural, political and religious differences between the two "tribes" and the fanaticism of religion fuels the hate...

My cousin was hit by an IRA bomb back home many moons ago.

[Cowperson]

Two Calgary publications will publish the cartoons shortly:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...f3dcae&k=22850

Cowperson

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Two Calgary publications will publish the cartoons shortly:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...f3dcae&k=22850

Cowperson

What's odd about that is that in the Gauntlet last Thursday, the editorial was about some lady calling them to say 'don't put the cartoons in there!' Apparently another student paper in Canada did it starting protests. The Gauntlet's response was 'we're too smart to poke a bear in the eye with a stick'. Apparently, others aren't.

[Cheese]

Well looky here...Iran jumps into the fray with both feet and lays the blame...

Iran's hard-line president on Saturday accused the United States and Europe of being "hostages of Zionism" and said they should pay a heavy price for the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad that have triggered worldwide protests.

So I wonder...IF the US and Europe are hostages of Zionism...what pray tell is Iran hostage to? Idiotism?

Iran jumps in

Me doth get the feeling this is going to turn into something more than cartoon mayhem!