Treliving

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Fox was extremely highly rated in some circles, remember Pronman’s rankings?He was worth a first rounder at the time of the trade and that’s how I think he was valued in that trade. I just don’t think Kylington would be worth that today or any other Flames prospect.

He was a college holdout soon to become a UFA, worth a gamble for a low price but the only team with incentive to pay much for him was the Rangers. He eventually was traded to the Rangers for a 2nd and a conditional 2nd (ended up being a 3rd). Same as Tom Erixon was traded for 2 x 2nds, I think that was the max value.


Kylington isn't really comparable IMO, his rights are owned by the team for several more years unless he wants to play in Europe. Not saying he is worth more or less than Fox just that the situations are different.

[1qqaaz]

Treliving should stop acquiring or tolerating low-skill zero-offense players.

There are currently 7 forwards who are on pace for fewer than 15 points.
4 of them have played over 15 games. Sam Bennett is dangerously those to this threshold.

Lucic, Reider, Jankowski and Frolik have a combined 8 points (2 goals) in 88 games.
That's abyssal. Brian McGrattan could do that on his own. And it's also way too many. That's more than an entire line of no offense.

I think this harms the team a lot more than people think. Not only are you missing out on lots of points for them, but it's putting a lot of pressure on the other forwards.
A lack of scoring depth exponentially hurts the team, and it's probably contributing to the bad play on the top end of the roster.

In an ideal world, none of these players would be playing any games. Are they working hard? Sure. But they're still harming the team. Only Lucic should be back next year, and that's purely because of his contract.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Treliving should stop acquiring or tolerating low-skill zero-offense players.

There are currently 7 forwards who are on pace for fewer than 15 points.
4 of them have played over 15 games. Sam Bennett is dangerously those to this threshold.

Lucic, Reider, Jankowski and Frolik have a combined 8 points (2 goals) in 88 games.
That's abyssal. Brian McGrattan could do that on his own. And it's also way too many. That's more than an entire line of no offense.

I think this harms the team a lot more than people think. Not only are you missing out on lots of points for them, but it's putting a lot of pressure on the other forwards.
A lack of scoring depth exponentially hurts the team, and it's probably contributing to the bad play on the top end of the roster.

In an ideal world, none of these players would be playing any games. Are they working hard? Sure. But they're still harming the team. Only Lucic should be back next year, and that's purely because of his contract.

Frolik and Jankowski were not “low skill zero offence” when acquired (and Treliving didn’t acquire Jankowski).

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

How are Jon Cooper, Bruce Cassidy and Todd Reirdon doing in the NHL? None of them had a "pedigree".

I’ve never said hiring a coach without pedigree is bad. My point is that at this point and arguably after Gulutzan management should have hired a guy with pedigree to remove that unknown from the equation.

[chedder]

I've said here before but the Gulutzan hiring did more to stunt this rebuild than evey bad signing that Tre has done combined. Completely wasted 2 years of Prime Johnny.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by chedder

I've said here before but the Gulutzan hiring did more to stunt this rebuild than evey bad signing that Tre has done combined. Completely wasted 2 years of Prime Johnny.

Gulutzan was bad but this team just isn't good enough. It needs to be more than the sum of its parts to be a contender (like last year with 5 top players rattling off career years). Can't expect that every year. This team has 4 good to great forward peices, an aging gio, soon to be UFA Brodie and a good goalie. After that, it's a whole lot of warm bodies with little to no skill. There is no easy fix and yes, Treliving made it this way. The lack of quality depth can be attributed to his carelessly dealing 1/3 to 1/2 our picks every year for replacement level players. And his hilariously horrendous UFA signings, can't forget about that insanity. I disagree with those who say we need to keep him for continuity's sake. Get rid of this guy, he's wrecked the team because he was impatient during the rebuild. Now we need another rebuild.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by chedder

I've said here before but the Gulutzan hiring did more to stunt this rebuild than evey bad signing that Tre has done combined. Completely wasted 2 years of Prime Johnny.

Johnny in his prime doesn't look good enough to lead this team anywhere. It's looking more like its Tkachuk, Lindholm, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki and Rittich's primes that we should be concerned about. Probably include Monahan in there too, I like how he's trying to round out his game this year and work on his weaknesses. Meanwhile Gaudreau's weaknesses are just getting more and more exploited and he doesn't seem to be able to fight through adversity with any sort of success. The more frustrated he gets the worse his game seems to get.

Why do people keep talking like this team is Gaudreau and a bunch of nobodies? Reality is Gaudreau is playing like the nobody and the guys I mentioned above are looking like the core to move forward with. In my frustration with the playoff exit I definitely questioned Gaudreau and Monahan. I think Treliving did the smart thing in not doing a knee jerk reaction and trading them immediately. I think giving them all or part of another season was prudent. But now you have them both struggling. But Monahan seems to be working on parts of his game in an attempt to improve himself. And Gaudreau doesn't seem to be doing anything to improve his game. In fact his game seems to be going downhill. The playoffs gave us a question, "Can this team win with Gaudreau and Monahan in starring roles in a tighter checking playoff?" If we're using this season to help answer the question I think Monahan still has room to grow and improve and he plays the more valuable position. Gaudreau is struggling with the checking in the regular season. That does not have me optimistic about how he'll handle tighter checking and higher frustration levels due to getting whacked and slashed and no calls (in the playoffs).

[dino7c]

Gaudreau had 99 points last season...tough start for sure but it doesn't take that away

There are numbers in the rafters that never had 99 point seasons, its way too early to give up on the guy

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Gaudreau had 99 points last season...tough start for sure but it doesn't take that away

There are numbers in the rafters that never had 99 point seasons, its way too early to give up on the guy

No one is saying give up on him, but acknowledge that if the right trade came along it should be considered.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

No one is saying give up on him, but acknowledge that if the right trade came along it should be considered.

Same goes for anyone...but to say he shouldn't be part of the core moving forward is kinda silly...not to mention playing the worst hockey of his career he is still right there with the Flames scoring leaders sitting 2nd, ONE POINT behind Tkachuk

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Same goes for anyone...but to say he shouldn't be part of the core moving forward is kinda silly...not to mention playing the worst hockey of his career he is still right there with the Flames scoring leaders sitting 2nd, ONE POINT behind Tkachuk

Is it silly based on his play this year? Or is it a tough question that needs to be asked? I'm not saying he's definitely not part of the core but I'm saying his play this year has to make us question it. Tough decisions have to be made sometimes when you want to be a contender. I hear you talking regular season points last year and this year. I'm talking about is he good enough to get it done in the playoffs in order to win the Stanley Cup. Two very different things. I don't dispute Gaudreau's ability to get regular season points. I am concerned about whether he can step his game up in the playoffs. His performance in the playoffs last season was VERY worrying. His performance so far this season is VERY worrying.

He's one of the most valuable Flames IMO in terms of value. But will he be one of the most valuable Flames in the playoffs every year? If not then Treliving may have to consider cashing in on his trade value in order to find the types of players who can succeed in the playoffs when the going gets tough.

Does Johnny hate losing enough to do the things needed to take his game to another level? I'm not seeing it. I think he'll have more of this year to rebound and hopefully he turns it around. But I'm not optimistic with the way he's playing. Johnny's play this calendar year has forced this debate.

We upgraded our grit and compete and leadership (without losing skill) by turning Hamilton into Lindholm. It's looking like Treliving needs to upgrade our grit and compete and leadership (without losing skill) again. It's a tough ask but its needed to continue moving us forward imo. Skill we don't lack imo. But at times it certainly looks like we lack speed, compete, grit, work ethic, and strength. And we can't solve that just by fixing anything on the bottom two lines. It's pretty clear something is rotten on the top two lines. And both the eye test and the stats point to Gaudreau being a part of the problem this year, not the solution.

The onus lies on Gaudreau right now. Improve. Adapt. Overcome. He still has time to do it. But if he hasn't done it by the end of the season I think he may have played his way out of the core by that point.

[Ped]

Look at the Raptors with DeRozan. Elite player, franchise icon, but something had to give. It was a risky gutsy move that 99 times out of 100 doesn’t work out the way way you hope, but sometimes if that. Hance comes up you have to go for it.

Most teams don’t.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Treliving should stop acquiring or tolerating low-skill zero-offense players.

There are currently 7 forwards who are on pace for fewer than 15 points.
4 of them have played over 15 games. Sam Bennett is dangerously those to this threshold.

Lucic, Reider, Jankowski and Frolik have a combined 8 points (2 goals) in 88 games.
That's abyssal. Brian McGrattan could do that on his own. And it's also way too many. That's more than an entire line of no offense.

I think this harms the team a lot more than people think. Not only are you missing out on lots of points for them, but it's putting a lot of pressure on the other forwards.
A lack of scoring depth exponentially hurts the team, and it's probably contributing to the bad play on the top end of the roster.

In an ideal world, none of these players would be playing any games. Are they working hard? Sure. But they're still harming the team. Only Lucic should be back next year, and that's purely because of his contract.

Not a very good post. You're totally cherry picking. Focusing purely on what we've seen from these players for a 20 game stretch, while ignoring previous seasons, is a pretty flimsy argument.

Jankowski scored 31 goals in his first two seasons. From a 3rd/4th line C, that's decent. 2 seasons ago people were complaining loudly that Jankowski was sent down to the AHL to start the season.

Frolik has been solid for the duration of his deal as well. He's only 2-3 years removed from being part of one of the most dominant possession lines in the league. If you didn't think some fall off was expected at the end of his deal, you're not paying attention to how UFA deals typically work.

Regardless, the Flames issues reside primarily with their best players, not their bottom 6. Unless Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio, Backlund (I'll exclude Tkachuck because he's probably been the best of the bunch) start pulling on the rope, this team will not succeed.

[Corral]

Must have been a pretty soft interview process for the coaching position last summer if none of this stuff re Peters came out in the due diligence performed by or for Treliving. Wouldn't be hard to ask some questions that probe into how Peters was received by players and the like. From what is gushing out on social media today, seems like not much probing was needed. Some angry folks out there.


This doesn't look good on Treliving as the GM.

[PepsiFree]

If we believe Treliving was the first or even the most recent NHL guy to turn a blind eye to bullying, racism, or the like, especially in a coach or player’s past, then we’re kidding ourselves.

It’d be pretty foolish to think Babcock and Peters are isolated incidents.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Corral

Must have been a pretty soft interview process for the coaching position last summer if none of this stuff re Peters came out in the due diligence performed by or for Treliving. Wouldn't be hard to ask some questions that probe into how Peters was received by players and the like. From what is gushing out on social media today, seems like not much probing was needed. Some angry folks out there.


This doesn't look good on Treliving as the GM.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If we believe Treliving was the first or even the most recent NHL guy to turn a blind eye to bullying, racism, or the like, especially in a coach or player’s past, then we’re kidding ourselves.

It’d be pretty foolish to think Babcock and Peters are isolated incidents.

I think that no search would have turned up the Aliu stuff. I'm sure there was talk of bullying behaviour, hell, we all knew about the Lack comment, but man, pick any coach and you probably will get a bunch of that talk. I know it was said about Sutter, Hartley, Bowman, etc. So it would be hard, without specific details, to know if that's just a "tough" coach or an abusive one.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Not only in hockey, but in the rest of the world companies hire racists, bullies and other flawed characters all the time.
You do your best not to. But hiring isn't a slam dunk.
What matters is what you do when the truth is revealed.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Corral

Must have been a pretty soft interview process for the coaching position last summer if none of this stuff re Peters came out in the due diligence performed by or for Treliving. Wouldn't be hard to ask some questions that probe into how Peters was received by players and the like. From what is gushing out on social media today, seems like not much probing was needed. Some angry folks out there.


This doesn't look good on Treliving as the GM.

For the future - you need to interview players that no longer have to worry about their career, to get to the truth about a coach.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Not only in hockey, but in the rest of the world companies hire racists, bullies and other flawed characters all the time.
You do your best not to. But hiring isn't a slam dunk.
What matters is what you do when the truth is revealed.

Which is why the Flames need to cut ties with this guy asap. Not only does it look terrible the longer it drags on, but it creates more and more distraction for the players, coaches etc.

You'd also hope a swift, decisive termination, regardless of the cost will send a strong message to people like Aliu that they can come forward and deter future incidents from occurring.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Which is why the Flames need to cut ties with this guy asap. Not only does it look terrible the longer it drags on, but it creates more and more distraction for the players, coaches etc.

You'd also hope a swift, decisive termination, regardless of the cost will send a strong message to people like Aliu that they can come forward and deter future incidents from occurring.

Unless Treliving knew about this - or turned a blind eye as Pepsi Free suggests. In which case, it is complicated for Treliving and Bill Peters will be sure to make it such.