[PGT] Flames 3 Flyers 1

[Stay Golden]

Was at the game Rittich played really well when he was needed. 2nd line played the most effective. Johnny was good but not great, Lindholm had a good game & Monahan was lacking on his chances.

Gio, Andresson best D on the night. Hamonic was hard to play against. Flyers had a tough time getting the best of him and he was a workhorse on the PK.
Brodie was the complete opposite of that and seems very disinterested out there.
Bennett i thought had a bad game, Janko was only slightly better.

I wish the coaching staff would completely replace Brodie on the PP.

Flames overall did enough to win but didn't kick it into another gear to make this a 4,5 goals for game. It was there if they wanted it.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I personally don't think it is an especially useful skill to have in the NHL. I mean, yes, goalies need to know what to do with the puck when they get it, and they need to be quick and decisive about it. That is what I want to see from David Rittich.

But what seems particularly inconsequential to winning is a goalie's individual puck skills, play, passing, movement, etc. In the time Mike Smith—an exceptional puck-playing goalie—was here in Calgary, there were a handful of times that his stick skills made a positive impact on the game, and also a few times where it cost the team goals. I also heard management and some of the players talk about how this skill minimized the number of times they took hits to make plays along the boards in the defensive zone. That all sounds good, but after the playoffs a poster on this site—I think it may have been Frank Metamusil—made a rather compelling argument for how Smith's puck-handling also had the unintended consequence of slowing Flames defensemen down in their own zone, and actually contributed to more passive play and turnovers. I went back and looked at the games with this thought in view, and I think he's right.

So, like I said: I don't think puck-play skills are all that valuable for a NHL goalie. Give me a goalie who makes simple, decisive, non-event plays with the puck every time, and I will be happy.

It definitely drove me nuts when Gulutzan coached and it was very pronounced.

Smith would get the puck behind the net, the D (mobile guys like Gio and Hamilton) would go to both corners and Smith could pass to his preferred D. Meantime, the opponents got in to their defensive formation and the breakouts were then often easily neutralized.

Even Sarich last night mentioned he didn’t play with goalies where he could just go wait in the corner. Like it was a good thing. Argh. Sarich was not an offensive D, so I wouldn’t expect much from him, but it just kills breakout speed

I also noted a lot of long bomb passes to winger at the far blue line such as Tkachuk, who had no support, and multiple defenders having position forced an immediate loss of possession

Smith read his own press too much and over handled the puck.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

...Smith read his own press too much and over handled the puck.

I agree with pretty much everything in your post, but I don't think it is fair to minimize just how good Mike Smith is with the puck. He is excellent. But, to reemphasize my point: as "neat" as this skill may be, I am coming to think more and more that it is meaningless to team success. It is not necessary to disparage Smith's puck-play in order to also make the point that it was not especially helpful.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree with pretty much everything in your post, but I don't think it is fair to minimize just how good Mike Smith is with the puck. He is excellent. But, to reemphasize my point: as "neat" as this skill may be, I am coming to think more and more that it is meaningless to team success. It is not necessary to disparage Smith's puck-play in order to also make the point that it was not especially helpful.

True, we agree. He is good at handling it but the value was often negated by the decision making, be it his decision making, or that of the team for building strategies to include it that were counter productive

[DeluxeMoustache]

Incidentally, the Backlund injury was also related to unnecessarily trying to do too much

It was his reflex to block that shot but he maybe should have let it through. I don’t think it was a particularly dangerous situation down low, and his block was a weird kick forward

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I personally don't think it is an especially useful skill to have in the NHL. I mean, yes, goalies need to know what to do with the puck when they get it, and they need to be quick and decisive about it. That is what I want to see from David Rittich.

But what seems particularly inconsequential to winning is a goalie's individual puck skills, play, passing, movement, etc. In the time Mike Smith—an exceptional puck-playing goalie—was here in Calgary, there were a handful of times that his stick skills made a positive impact on the game, and also a few times where it cost the team goals. I also heard management and some of the players talk about how this skill minimized the number of times they took hits to make plays along the boards in the defensive zone. That all sounds good, but after the playoffs a poster on this site—I think it may have been Frank Metamusil—made a rather compelling argument for how Smith's puck-handling also had the unintended consequence of slowing Flames defensemen down in their own zone, and actually contributed to more passive play and turnovers. I went back and looked at the games with this thought in view, and I think he's right.

So, like I said: I don't think puck-play skills are all that valuable for a NHL goalie. Give me a goalie who makes simple, decisive, non-event plays with the puck every time, and I will be happy.

The Flames themselves tracked this internally and the first year Smith played in Calgary, they estimated it saved defensemen from getting hit/rubbed out over 400 times during the season. That is a great help to those guys and allows for much fresher/less injured bodies at seasons end.

It matters...a lot.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The Flames themselves tracked this internally and the first year Smith played in Calgary, they estimated it saved defensemen from getting hit/rubbed out over 400 times during the season. That is a great help to those guys and allows for much fresher/less injured bodies at seasons end.

It matters...a lot.

I think we need to fact check this

That would be 5 times a game over 80, but he didn’t play 80.

So 8 times a game?

Seems generous

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The Flames themselves tracked this internally and the first year Smith played in Calgary, they estimated it saved defensemen from getting hit/rubbed out over 400 times during the season. That is a great help to those guys and allows for much fresher/less injured bodies at seasons end.

It matters...a lot.

Yes. I acknowledged this, but that is beside the counter-point that I was making. It slows the defense in their own zone, and I think that was a contributing factor to what happened in the playoffs with a much more intensive forecheck from the other team. With the number of NHL teams that don't seem to prioritize this aspect of their game I think it is abundantly fair to question the overall effectiveness of a puck-playing goalie.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The Flames themselves tracked this internally and the first year Smith played in Calgary, they estimated it saved defensemen from getting hit/rubbed out over 400 times during the season. That is a great help to those guys and allows for much fresher/less injured bodies at seasons end.

It matters...a lot.

I think it probably did matter to an extent but you do have to weigh the pros and cons as him leaving his net last season probably cost the Flames at least 5 or more unearned goals against or so you have to analyze how many extra goals they were getting out of the 400 times defensemen were not getting rubbed out. I'm sure it was a net positive but the unearned goals given up are pretty hard to take with today's parity and close matchups.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The Flames themselves tracked this internally and the first year Smith played in Calgary, they estimated it saved defensemen from getting hit/rubbed out over 400 times during the season. That is a great help to those guys and allows for much fresher/less injured bodies at seasons end.

It matters...a lot.

I too question the stat. But the prevention of the ringaround dump in and a smart medium length pass to a D is a great skill and it helps the team. What people are saying, I think, is that the long bomb pass up ice is not that helpful. Cool that he can pull off a pass that long, but the recipient is almost always standing still (because it's a good pass but not like a D's) or it misses, and in any event the recipient is all by himself with no support. It's probably a possession killer, not an enhancement (much like the stretch pass).

[DeluxeMoustache]

* Fact check the 400.

Doesn’t pass the smell test. ~ 8 times per game on average that he handled the puck and the D was legitimately going to take contact? I am skeptical.

Even then, you have 82 x 6 = 492 man games for D

That high number which is already very hard to believe is average less than a hit / rub out per game per D man. I am sure they were not all bone rattling hits.

Nice talking point until you look at the numbers.

[Flash Walken]

Saving the defenders taking contact is surely valuable, but if playing the puck doesn't translate into wins, does it really matter that much?

I question whether Smith's puck handling is a net positive over the course of a year.

It seems to me that as a measurement talking point, it's not that impressive really. The number sounds big, but if you're saving defender's getting hit only to turn the puck over in the neutral zone for a scoring chance against, maybe it's preferable that the defender takes contact for a clean zone exit with possession.

You'd think if they had data that supported that kind of conclusion that that would be the talking point.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree with pretty much everything in your post, but I don't think it is fair to minimize just how good Mike Smith is with the puck. He is excellent. But, to reemphasize my point: as "neat" as this skill may be, I am coming to think more and more that it is meaningless to team success. It is not necessary to disparage Smith's puck-play in order to also make the point that it was not especially helpful.

He's an Oiler, and he always was. It is always necessary.

[The Boy Wonder]

There was an article in the athletic last season that basically did the analytics and concluded that Smith playing the puck had little to no discernable impact on number of hits taken. and it also proved that he had a negative impact on puck possession and breakout success or something to that effect.

I think it was Kent who did it but I can't remember exactly. Maybe February ish?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

* Fact check the 400.

Doesn’t pass the smell test. ~ 8 times per game on average that he handled the puck and the D was legitimately going to take contact? I am skeptical.

Even then, you have 82 x 6 = 492 man games for D

That high number which is already very hard to believe is average less than a hit / rub out per game per D man. I am sure they were not all bone rattling hits.

Nice talking point until you look at the numbers.

It was brian Burke on HNIC IIRC...so take it up with him, Im just repeating what was said.

But even if you dont like it, the D men themselves (particularly Giordano) have repeatedly stated they appreciate the wear and tear it saves on their bodies.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

It was brian Burke on HNIC IIRC...so take it up with him, Im just repeating what was said.

But even if you dont like it, the D men themselves (particularly Giordano) have repeatedly stated they appreciate the wear and tear it saves on their bodies.

And I would question the validity of this claim. Is this an opinion that is borne of evidence, or is based on flawed perceptions of the defensemen?

I am personally sceptical about the causal link between when the puck is played by the goalie and whether or not that saves a defenseman from a hit. Of course, even if this is only a perception that makes the defensemen feel better about themselves and their game, that in itself might be of some value.

But again, I think there is a separate issue here: I believe that with such a highly active goalie behind them it is natural for defensemen to play more slowly, passively and with a lower degree of anticipation in their own zone. It makes sense to me that they would do so—even if only instinctively because they are expecting the puck to be moved. This also means that defensemen are moving the puck from behind their own goal less, and arguably not carrying it with as much speed from their own blue line once they get it on their sticks. I think this potentially creates more problems than it solves, especially when facing off against a very fast forechecking team on the other side of the ice.

[Manhattanboy]

One other note from last night. Might be just me, but coaches need to work on zone entry.

Even the first line was having trouble gaining the zone at times. And we still had problems on the power play.

Other teams seem to cross our blue line without much effort but we seem to be forced into chip and chase.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

One other note from last night. Might be just me, but coaches need to work on zone entry.

Even the first line was having trouble gaining the zone at times. And we still had problems on the power play.

Other teams seem to cross our blue line without much effort but we seem to be forced into chip and chase.

I don't think zone entries have been much of a problem over all. I agree they have been poor on the powerplay in the last three games, but I think this is on the players. No doubt they are fighting through it right now having gone 0/11 since their last powerplay goal in Dallas.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

And I would question the validity of this claim. Is this an opinion that is borne of evidence, or is based on flawed perceptions of the defensemen?

I am personally sceptical about the causal link between when the puck is played by the goalie and whether or not that saves a defenseman from a hit. Of course, even if this is only a perception that makes the defensemen feel better about themselves and their game, that in itself might be of some value.

But again, I think there is a separate issue here: I believe that with such a highly active goalie behind them it is natural for defensemen to play more slowly, passively and with a lower degree of anticipation in their own zone. It makes sense to me that they would do so—even if only instinctively because they are expecting the puck to be moved. This also means that defensemen are moving the puck from behind their own goal less, and arguably not carrying it with as much speed from their own blue line once they get it on their sticks. I think this potentially creates more problems than it solves, especially when facing off against a very fast forechecking team on the other side of the ice.

Its a stat they had someone tracking each game...Chris Snow maybe? I dunno, but he has no reason to make it up. Maybe I didnt hear him right or whatever, it was just a casual comment he made a couple weeks back on HNIC when they were talking about G's handling the puck in a general sense.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Its a stat they had someone tracking each game...Chris Snow maybe? I dunno, but he has no reason to make it up. Maybe I didnt hear him right or whatever, it was just a casual comment he made a couple weeks back on HNIC when they were talking about G's handling the puck in a general sense.

I would disagree with this.

There is a lot I like about Brian Burke but I don't believe for a second that he is above making things up in the media in order to massage his own image. He was part of the group that went out and acquired Mike Smith, and at the time Smith's puck-handling skills were promoted by Flames management as a key component in their decision to target him. Even after the fact and now that he is outside of the organisation Burke is still going to do what he can to defend those decisions to which he was party.