[Rumour] TSN: Flames will inquire about re-acquiring Ferland

[neo45]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Difference being, Brouwer was actively hurting the clubs overall performance and production.

Neal simply isn't doing that as evidenced by the unprecedented success this franchise is experiencing.

Not a single guy in that room cares what Neal is making either. He is the one guy in there that has been to the finals twice, and most certainly will talk to the group about how to get there and what to expect.

The last part is 100% untrue. In the salary cap era guys very much care what other people on the team are making. There is a pre set amount of money to go around.

Also the “cup experience” point you try to make is pretty much word for word part of what the Brouwer defense was for his poor performance.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by neo45

The last part is 100% untrue. In the salary cap era guys very much care what other people on the team are making. There is a pre set amount of money to go around.

The team is not yet at the cap, so it's not zero sum - his money doesn't necessarily come out of their pockets. And most, if not all, of the contracts were negotiated before Neal was signed, so they wouldn't be making more.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No one is talking about any of that. They are saying he's looked better in recent games and we hope he is turning a corner. And if so, great, it's like adding a guy.

As for the locker room, who knows what makes it tick. I don't think they loved Hamilton and he put up a lot of points. I think they loved Stajan and he didn't. Guy are generally popular in the DR if they are friends with the other guys. Right now, other players aren't getting their time cut anyway. Neal has spent most of the time on the 3rd line. He's taking away time from who - Mangiapane? Hathaway? And I haven't noticed a lot of stupid penalties.

You don’t think Frolik’s very public issues with his ice time have something to do with Neal getting more? It’s pretty obviously the main reason

Neal in terms of TOI is being played as a top 6 forward

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Good players don't need to get comfy LOL.

Sure they do. The year Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne played in Colorado, neither scored 40 points. Lots of big free agents have tough starts to their tenures with new teams.

If James Neal plays the way he has for the last two weeks for the next two months, he will have salvaged his season. At this point, we have to hope he can put up another two halfway decent seasons without being a total liability. That is not an unreasonable ask.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by neo45

You don’t think Frolik’s very public issues with his ice time have something to do with Neal getting more? It’s pretty obviously the main reason

Neal in terms of TOI is being played as a top 6 forward

I think they've moved Tkachuk onto a line with Jankowksi and Bennett because they want to see Matthew play away from Backlund. I also think they want more offense from Jankowksi; if 19-77-93 is a consistent scoring threat, then you can play Backlund and Frolik in a more purely defensive role.

I think Neal-Backlund-Frolik is a good line - Frolik adds a little extra speed that isn't present when it's Tkachuk-Backlund-Neal. It's a bunch of veterans who work well together. Neal made a bunch of good defensive plays last night, on the backcheck, getting his stick in passing lanes; he also had a number of good looks offensively. He's a better shooter than either of his linemates. I think it's a good fit.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I agree with everything in your post, except for the bolded part, that is simply not true. I'm very disappointing in what we have in Neal right now, and there is just as much chance he Browers as there is he becomes what we hoped, but lots of examples of players needing time. Hamonic is a perfect example, he's exactly what we hoped we were getting when we traded for him this year, last year, not at all.

The biggest change for Hamonic is playing with a new partner, the highly skilled Hanafin.

Sure sometimes players "need time", but it likely more simply randomness than anything else. He got off to a poor start, and lost some premium ice time, which simply makes it harder to contribute point wise. He'll eventually contribute more, but it's also possible his age regression has simply started earlier than expected.

I doubt it's got anything to do with being "comfortable".

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by neo45

You don’t think Frolik’s very public issues with his ice time have something to do with Neal getting more? It’s pretty obviously the main reason

Neal in terms of TOI is being played as a top 6 forward

Obviously the reason? No. I don't think one has anything to do with the other.

i think Peters plays guys where he wants to play them. Frolik's play has been variable and he can help different lines in different ways. Last game IMO Neal was good, so no change was needed.

If salary and signing expectations or "getting him going" played into it you would see Neal on the top line way more.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The biggest change for Hamonic is playing with a new partner, the highly skilled Hanafin.

Sure sometimes players "need time", but it likely more simply randomness than anything else. He got off to a poor start, and lost some premium ice time, which simply makes it harder to contribute point wise. He'll eventually contribute more, but it's also possible his age regression has simply started earlier than expected.

I doubt it's got anything to do with being "comfortable".

Hamonic was playing with Brodie last year. Whatever Brodie's issues, 'lack of skill' isn't one of them.

You can say it doesn't have anything to do with being comfortable. Maybe that's the wrong word, but I don't think it is.

Neal looked absolutely lost for much of the first half. He was way behind the play, he wasn't in dangerous areas, he wasn't good defensively. He was Troy Brouwer with a snap shot.

He's not that, at least not now.

[PeteMoss]

Ferland has missed time with another concussion this year and again yesterday left the game early. I'd stay far away.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by neo45

He is as effective in the bottom 6 as any top 6 player in the league. He won us a playoff series in the bottom six and has gotten better since then.

Why do you think half the league wants to trade for him? Even teams out of a playoff spot are interested

Ferland is super inconsistent and you never know what you are going to get from him. He hasn't gotten better at the things he was doing well in that series. and I would say he has changed his game away from that style since then as he has become more of a goal scorer. so yes as a hockey player he has gotten better but I don't think that necessarily means he would be more effective now than he was then, and I think he's actually stopped doing a lot of those things. There were multiple games last season where ferland didnt even throw a real body check.

Also seems that this year he has been frequently injured and dealing with a bunch of things and that doesn't bode well.


Let him go to someone else's team where they can overpay for a guy who will be good for 10 games and awful for 15.

[Madman]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Ferland has missed time with another concussion this year and again yesterday left the game early. I'd stay far away.

Injured his motivator cuff again.

[EVERLAST]

I’d love Ferland back but realistically just too much risk with injuries and concussions. Last night was his first game back after tweaking something.

I’m an sentimental as the next guy but something just isn’t right. Man we could use a healthy big guy with a helluva shot and toughness but he just isn’t the same guy.

I hope he proves me wrong .....I really do.

[FlamesAreOne]

I'd love him back but not at the cost it would take to get him. I think especially with his injury woes, it would be a mistake.

[868904]

You need guys like Ferland in the playoffs, but you can't be paying them $5,000,000.

Sucks that the Flames missed out on Reaves in the Summer. He's a more physical but less skilled Ferland but they bring the same thing to your team.

Reaves is on pace for about 10 goals and he's getting paid at $2,750,000. There's a premium there for also being the toughest guy in the league.

At most, Ferland should be worth about $3,500,000, but he's going to get way more than that.

Flames should look for something closer to what Reaves is. Less skilled but can skate well enough and throw his body around and also fight. Not sure there's anyone like that around. Brett Ritchie might be an option.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by neo45

The last part is 100% untrue. In the salary cap era guys very much care what other people on the team are making. There is a pre set amount of money to go around.

Also the “cup experience” point you try to make is pretty much word for word part of what the Brouwer defense was for his poor performance.

Uh....no it isnt.

Every single guy in every room in the league has negotiated his deal, and everyone understands that.

No one begrudges anyone else that they make whatever they make....they are adults.

And if you don't think having a guy like Neal with his SC experience makes a difference to those that haven't been through it, I don't know what else to tell you.

[FlamesAddiction]

Really not worth giving up a lot for Ferland considering there is a good chance he will be injured for important games down the stretch.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Uh....no it isnt.

Every single guy in every room in the league has negotiated his deal, and everyone understands that.

No one begrudges anyone else that they make whatever they make....they are adults.

And if you don't think having a guy like Neal with his SC experience makes a difference to those that haven't been through it, I don't know what else to tell you.

All true. Plus, all but 5 Flames signed their deals before Neal's contract so what he signed for affects their salary in no way, shape or form. Their contracts were set. (Hanifin, Lindholm, Janko, Hathaway and Rittich are the ones who signed after Neal).

Plus, the Flames currently have $4M in cap space. All of the cap space would have to be eaten up on the new 5 players' salaries in a contract before Neal's contract would make their's any less. In other words, Lindholm, who signed after Neal, could have made $6.6M if Treliving wanted to pay him that much, and Neal's contract wouldn't have prevented it. BTW, Lindholm, Hathaway and Rittich all filed for arbitration and based on what I recall about their offers in their filings, the cap wouldn't have been an issue.

[Jeff Lebowski]

IMO there are 3 areas that potentially need an upgrade (have until trade deadline to determine):

-3rd pair D
-4th line W
-Backup G

All the rookie D have acquitted themselves well but it would be a tough lesson for the team to sink in playoffs from fatal rookie mistakes. I'm basically looking at LD - stressing that I really like all our guys - but Kylington still makes me take a pause.

-In previous preseason viewings, the thing I noticed about Kylington was if there was a race back to the puck and the opponent engaged him or a 50/50 battle for the puck, he could be pushed off the puck. I thought he's either got to get stronger or never get caught in that position because it's an instant turnover. But you can't avoid those plays 100%.

-This year he can stand up to being physically pushed off the puck but he still panics a little and just throws it away (ARZ game I think is recent example). He's been able to get away with these mistakes but playoff teams make you pay for those errors. To his credit I watched subsequent games and he did a better job of managing the puck.

Can the 3rd pair bust up a cycle?

Valimaki, I worry a little less but maybe I'm being biased against Kylington. He's improved a lot and continues to improve, but it seems to me Valimaki is more stout defensivley and won't throw pucks blindly. He's super young, first year pro and maybe he's the one who might make mistakes out of inexperience or youthful exuberance?

What if the scenario is on the road, elimination game - would you be comfortable if a 1st line is put out against them?

Mangiapane might not be physically ready this year. Neither is Dube. IMO what's needed is someone who can play strong on the boards in both the offensive and defensive zones. Still has to be able to skate so I don't know if a guy like Maroon is the answer.

If you're playing a bigger team and CGY is trying to get the puck out with a rim, the opponent defenseman is crashing down the wall, will Mangiapane get the puck out?

If you're trying to wear down the opponent's d corps is Mangiapane the guy who will finish all the checks?

Maybe you use a Lazar for heavy opponents and Quine for the faster teams.
Spend assets on outside guys for pretty limited roles? I'm not sure you do that. Maybe the third pair is dealt with similarly with Kylington/Valimaki/Andersson in a platoon?

For G maybe you just need depth (not replace the NHL roster guys) in case of emergency.

I'm not suggesting these guys aren't good, I really like all of them. It's just that are the playoffs a developmental tool/experience? I realize players need the experience and they will grow. It's a tough call. From now until trade deadline should be a time of exacting scrutiny - if the young guys keep improving maybe you roll with them.

[TheScorpion]

Hamonic and Ryan took a while to adjust to their new teams. Now, I'd argue they're two of the Flames' most important defensive players.

I'm willing to give Neal plenty of time, as long as the Flames keep winning.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

IMO there are 3 areas that potentially need an upgrade (have until trade deadline to determine):

-3rd pair D
-4th line W
-Backup G

All the rookie D have acquitted themselves well but it would be a tough lesson for the team to sink in playoffs from fatal rookie mistakes. I'm basically looking at LD - stressing that I really like all our guys - but Kylington still makes me take a pause.

-In previous preseason viewings, the thing I noticed about Kylington was if there was a race back to the puck and the opponent engaged him or a 50/50 battle for the puck, he could be pushed off the puck. I thought he's either got to get stronger or never get caught in that position because it's an instant turnover. But you can't avoid those plays 100%.

-This year he can stand up to being physically pushed off the puck but he still panics a little and just throws it away (ARZ game I think is recent example). He's been able to get away with these mistakes but playoff teams make you pay for those errors. To his credit I watched subsequent games and he did a better job of managing the puck.

Can the 3rd pair bust up a cycle?

Valimaki, I worry a little less but maybe I'm being biased against Kylington. He's improved a lot and continues to improve, but it seems to me Valimaki is more stout defensivley and won't throw pucks blindly. He's super young, first year pro and maybe he's the one who might make mistakes out of inexperience or youthful exuberance?

What if the scenario is on the road, elimination game - would you be comfortable if a 1st line is put out against them?

Mangiapane might not be physically ready this year. Neither is Dube. IMO what's needed is someone who can play strong on the boards in both the offensive and defensive zones. Still has to be able to skate so I don't know if a guy like Maroon is the answer.

If you're playing a bigger team and CGY is trying to get the puck out with a rim, the opponent defenseman is crashing down the wall, will Mangiapane get the puck out?

If you're trying to wear down the opponent's d corps is Mangiapane the guy who will finish all the checks?

Maybe you use a Lazar for heavy opponents and Quine for the faster teams.
Spend assets on outside guys for pretty limited roles? I'm not sure you do that. Maybe the third pair is dealt with similarly with Kylington/Valimaki/Andersson in a platoon?

For G maybe you just need depth (not replace the NHL roster guys) in case of emergency.

I'm not suggesting these guys aren't good, I really like all of them. It's just that are the playoffs a developmental tool/experience? I realize players need the experience and they will grow. It's a tough call. From now until trade deadline should be a time of exacting scrutiny - if the young guys keep improving maybe you roll with them.

I agree almost completely.

The only thing I would add is that Czarnik, Mangipane and to an extent Ryan (although he wins draws) and Dube aren't cut out for playoff hockey. The game is physical and we need a physical threat so that Johnny doesn't get his wrists slashed every single time he's on the ice.

D I am less concerned, as long as stone can come back from bloodclot and get into game shape by playoffs, otherwise you need a veteran presence back there.

I'd also like to see them upgrade backup goalie. Smith has been the biggest weakness on this team all season and has cost them at least 8 points on his own (being conservative) and won them maybe 2 on his own. Not saying he's the worst backup in the league but he's pretty damn close. I'd prefer getting in a guy who would be only the ~15th best backup in the NHL instead of the 30th ranked backup in the NHL JIC

For me wishlist is two hard hitting wingers who cost no more than a second or third rounder , a backup goalie who costs us a forward prospect (foo or someone) and a 6th d man like kronwall for a mid to late round pick (guy who wants to have one last run at the cup like regher with LA a few years back