[PGT] Predators def. Flames, 5-3

[jg13]

Originally Posted by slcrocket

I agree with many that Smith didn't lose us this game tonight; but I am also with many who say that Smith is not a viable starting goalie for a team that fancies itself as at least getting to the second round of the playoffs.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by slcrocket

I agree with many that Smith didn't lose us this game tonight; but I am also with many who say that Smith is not a viable starting goalie for a team that fancies itself as at least getting to the second round of the playoffs.

But I don't see what real options we have this season. If you feel better about Rittich in net than you do about Smith, that's great - but I don't. I think they are both average netminders at best who are both best suited for backup roles. But there is no significant upgrade that is either 1) readily available via trade or 2) readily available for the limited assets we have to spend. And if there is, that goalie is not going to be made available until the deadline, meaning that we are locked in with what we have for the majority of the season.

Those saying Treliving has a decision to make about the goaltending must be seeing some option I'm not. You're not trading core guys for that significant upgrade in goalie, and the other guys you have are not good enough pieces to attract it. We are going to have to dance with who brung us for the time being, and unfortunately that is a rapidly aging #41.

The real problem is this organization's lack of ability to develop a young goalie. We've been renting players who are all for the most part past their primes (Hiller/Elliott/Smith) while waiting for Gillies or McDonald or Parsons to emerge, and none of them do. Gillies is 24 and was drafted third round in 2012 and can't seem to make the jump. McDonald is 22 and was drafted second round in 2014 and is in the ECHL. Parsons is 21 and was drafted second round in 2016 and only now has jumped to Stockton. I still personally hold out some hope for Parsons now that he's got his head right, but Gillies's and McDonald's extremely slow development (if we can call it that) has handicapped the future of that position for this team. Thank goodness we stumbled upon undrafted David Rittich or we'd be really screwed on this one.

This team is going to have to play some high-scoring games this year; fortunately not everyone is as good as Nashville and I think we'll win a lot of them.

It's not easy to predict goaltending and I think a lot of it is because of how mental the position is. Also as the last line of defense it must exasperate the difficulty of playing it consistently at a high level let alone predict the guys that will be able to.

Look at Dubnyk, who jumped around a few organizations until he found his grove.

Look at Bobrovsky, who the organization who has had bigger goaltending issues than us over so many years I cannot count, traded him away for him only to become a superstar in Columbus.

Look at Thomas who wasn't great or even discovered until he was in his 30's.

Look at any number of high potential, highly picked goalies that have not lived up to their potential. Think Dipietro, Montoya, Campbell, Krahn.

Look at Vasilevskiy who became an outstanding goalie at a young age, even as the goalie first picked in 2012 I'm sure he wasn't expected to take over for Bishop so early and essentially at the most perfect time for the organization (It hurts thinking we could have had him instead of Jankowski and Sieloff even if I like Janko).

Point is goalies are extremely hard to get a read on. The only teams who seem to be extremely good at it are Nashville, Anahiem and Washington.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Yes, Smith didn’t lose the game.

Much as we all see so many people breaking out the knives each loss, every game has a winner and a loser. The Flames arguably deserved a better fate - Saros had some wicked saves, the refs arguably missed some penalty calls (but I don’t put much stock in that), and the bounces didn’t go their way (notably Tkachuk and Bennett’s mirrored plays where they put it through the goalie but not on net)

Statistically Smith didn’t please some, but let’s take that Rinaldo shot - it was excellent. I have played beer league hockey during the summer where a guy brought out a friend who was captain of an AHL team, and more towards goon than sniper, but given time and space (which obviously beer leaguers will do), he could pick a corner, and go bar down with ease. Rinaldo doesn’t make that shot consistently, but he is capable of it, and in this case he made it. I don’t fault Smith. Perfect shot.

Brodie drops his stick on the first goal. It is at his feet. The split second decision to pick it up ends up hurting just because of how quickly and successfully Nashville gets the puck. Even if he doesn’t pick it up, and takes the guy, what happens? Does he need to take a penalty and hold the guy to avoid the goal? Think about it. It is a very, very quick sequence of events. Stuff goes wrong and goals get scored. These things happen. I see no goat there. Arguably by circumstance but not by intent or neglect. (Unless Peters can tape a guy’s stick to his gloves which a coach did to me once when I was 5, haha)

(Now having said that, I will disclose that pre Flames I didn’t like Smith because it seemed he was a pre-Madonna (yes, that was a joke) that put himself ahead of the team at times. It’s an odd thing for a goalie. As a crappy beer league level goalie, I have goals scored that are pretty much unstoppable, and have D that come back and apologize for losing their guy. Even when they have a case, I still think that I am the last line of defense and how could I have played it better and maybe stopped it. I have realistic expectations of myself and some self awareness. I hate being scored on, and know sometimes goals are going in, but still know I’m not perfect, nor are my D, and it’s a team effort. You can ask a guy not to block or deflect it, to get out of the way, sure, but you sure can’t show them up. That’s what you may see from a #### teammate)

[Mitt31]

Has smith had a bad start to the season? YES YES YES

This game, i think he played good in mostly.

Goal 1 - he should have had it but stayed on his post
- that said.... Brodie leaves his defender to walk right in.
- Flames looked like they had good positional coverage.

Goal 2 - Flames have been leaving the front of the net open on a lot of goals and are very guilty yet again...

Goal 3 - Scramble on the PK

Goal 4 - I have a huge beef with as an ex goalie
- 2 on 1 with a low percentage player TAKE THE PASSER ALWAYS
- When Andersson commits to the shooter 2 things happen
- First, Smith cant challenge
- Second (more importantly), the sliding player now becomes a bit of a screen on the shot

I understand we all want the next kipper to show for many years, but until then the flames have to clean up their defensive gaffs and make it a little easier on their goalies.

That said, they were in this game and it could have went either way.... i'll take them lose while fighting rather then what we seen the last few seasons.

Ohh and start Rittich next game please!

[gamesaver]

So I was defending our goalies for as long as I could. Its over, we need some 92%+ goaltending and we need it now.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by gamesaver

So I was defending our goalies for as long as I could. Its over, we need some 92%+ goaltending and we need it now.

Add 20 garbage shots from the perimeter that are easily stopped and you meet your stats. It’s unfortunately not that simple

7 games in, the team is 4-3. Just split wins with a darn good team. Every game has a winner and a loser and Smith wasn’t bad by any measure other than single game sv% which is pretty much meaningless

Patience.

[meh]

Im predicting Conner will make a win happen next game for oilers.
Just saying.

[AC]

Originally Posted by meh

Im predicting Conner will make a win happen next game for oilers.
Just saying.

You're just saying what exactly?

[icarus]

Close game. Seems to me the difference was the Preds simply capitalised on more of their high-danger chances than the Flames did. Saros made some huge saves.

A 5-on-3 in the dying minutes of the third probably would have tied it up with the way the Flames were going at the time. Really inexcusable that the highstick on Johnny wasn't called. Do the refs think he embellished? Does it matter? It was blatant.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Barnet Flame]

I have a lot of respect for Smith. I believe he works hard and is a fierce competitor. He has the characteristics you want in a senior player and you want that to rub off on the younger players. Which I think it does.

However, the ability he has to be the number 1 goalie on a competitive play off team is questionable. He has got to be more frustrated in what is happening than we are watching him being unable to consistently make saves when he is needed.

We have a very good team, but even making the playoffs is a crapshoot with our goaltending situation.

This is Treliving’s greatest challenge and could be what defines his time at this organisation.

Also, special shout out to the refs: you suck.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ tonight was a 1 goal game

Saros robbed the Flames on a couple.

Which goal(s) should* Smith have stopped?

I really don’t see how the indictment matches up to the game result that prompts the rant.

Every game has a winner and a loser and on this night, the goals scored against the Flames were not unreasonable

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Add 20 garbage shots from the perimeter that are easily stopped and you meet your stats. It’s unfortunately not that simple

7 games in, the team is 4-3. Just split wins with a darn good team. Every game has a winner and a loser and Smith wasn’t bad by any measure other than single game sv% which is pretty much meaningless

Patience.

This was Smith's 3rd best game SV percentage wise all season.

St Louis was worse (.792 SV percentage)

Home opener win was worse (.800 SV percentage)

Opening night was worse (.818 SV percentage)

His .867 SV percentage is around his average. I think Smith does have the ability to throw up a. 904 SV percentage by the end of the year, which should put him in the top 20-25 starters in the league, which is around where he is at at this stage in his career.

But I do agree that with patience he will improve that SV percentage from .885 (although thank god he did get 20 perimeter shots that anyone could save in the shutout victory, that really helped his overall SV percentage)

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

I have a lot of respect for Smith. I believe he works hard and is a fierce competitor. He has the characteristics you want in a senior player and you want that to rub off on the younger players. Which I think it does.

However, the ability he has to be the number 1 goalie on a competitive play off team is questionable. He has got to be more frustrated in what is happening than we are watching him being unable to consistently make saves when he is needed.

We have a very good team, but even making the playoffs is a crapshoot with our goaltending situation.

This is Treliving’s greatest challenge and could be what defines his time at this organisation.

Also, special shout out to the refs: you suck.

I hope that BT moves on from getting his starter from the scrap heap. After Hillier, Elliott and now Smith I think going in cheap and old on a goalie has proven not to be a winning strategy.

[bluck]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I hope that BT moves on from getting his starter from the scrap heap. After Hillier, Elliott and now Smith I think going in cheap and old on a goalie has proven not to be a winning strategy.

He did try to get Bishop and Fleury as well. I wish we had Raanta...

[FireGilbert]

I'm not too upset since I never expected the Flames to sweep the season series against the President's trophy winners. I thought Nashville played a perfect road game and Calgary was just not quite good enough.

I agree with those saying Smith is not to blame but he didn't do much to help.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by timbit

But he did, with a perfect shot.

Is that on Smith?

Yes, that was on Smith. Smith is a 6'5 220 pound goaltender. The man is a mountain, yet he continually gets beat cleanly on straight angle shots. On Rinaldo's goal Smith is clearly inside the blue paint of the crease, making himself small and giving holes to shoot at. Yes, Rinaldo made a good shot, but Smith should have played this better and given the 4th line knuckle duster nothing to shoot at. This is one of the problems with Smith. He is a below average fundamentals goaltender. His angles suck because he plays so deep in the net and he doesn't use his size like he should. We've seen it time-and-time again. A guy this big should be giving shooters nothing to shoot at.

Originally Posted by timbit

Based on your parameters, how did the current Vezina winner do tonight?

Did he outplay Smith?

Yup, Rinne had a tough game going, but he still managed to keep his team in the lead. That's right, at no time did the Flames ever have the lead, because Rinne continued to make saves on the Flames homeplate chances. Looking past this one game, you have Rinne still posting a .929 S% and a 2.11 GAA for the season. Smith? A .885 S% and a 3.38 GAA. Thank god for that shut out, or those numbers look even worse.


Here's the real kicker to me. If the Flames and the Oilers trade goaltenders the Flames are probably 6-1, or possibly undefeated. They have really suffered at the hands of their goaltending. Conversely, the Oilers would be winless and a bigger laughing stock than they already are. The Oilers have relied on Talbout to cover up on their defensive gaffs, and they have suffered through many more than the Flames have. That is the big difference. All goaltenders can stop the pucks that are shot at them. Good goaltenders can control or eat up the rebounds so they don't have to make the big saves. Good goaltenders also have the ability to make the big save, and prevent a goal from happening. We don't get that from Smith. He's a puckstopper and nothing more. Smith has poor angle coverage, poor rebound control, poor lateral movement, and poor hands. His go-to move is the "downward facing snow angle" which he uses he loses control of the puck. He just isn't a good goaltender and the results with the Flames, and from the rest of his career, are proof of that. Treliving needs to finally resolve this so the team can move forward.

[Bingo]

The Flames could have better goaltendng, I won't argue that.

But they're giving up too much and that's the issue. If you're ranked 28th in the league in high danger chances against per 60 minutes you get in trouble. 16 of them last night, and last year's 15th ranked goaltender stopped 83% of the high danger chances. That's 12 giving up four, which is what he did.

The real issue is the above and the top line just getting zamboni'd every time they're on the ice. That's three of the last four games that they've been under the bus in almost every single category. Monahan and Gaudreau have to learn to play better outside the opposition's blueline. It's killing the team. You can't have 20+ minutes of fire drill.

[Lanny_McDonald]

For comparison sake, what are the Oilers' high danger chances? They have to be worse than the Flames. How do those compare?


The real issue here is Mike Smith is not a goaltender that can survive in this system. He needs a system that is extremely structured that builds a massive shell around him and allows him to make the easy save, then have the rebounds cleared. In the Flames' system, he has to play strong positionally, which is a weakness, has to control his rebounds, which is a weakness, and has to be able to cover ice post-to-post, which is a weakness. The one area he is really strong is puck handling, and that is not a requirement of this system. Smith is a goaltender that doesn't fit in our system, and in reality has watch the game pass him by.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by New Era

For comparison sake, what are the Oilers' high danger chances? They have to be worse than the Flames. How do those compare?


The real issue here is Mike Smith is not a goaltender that can survive in this system. He needs a system that is extremely structured that builds a massive shell around him and allows him to make the easy save, then have the rebounds cleared. In the Flames' system, he has to play strong positionally, which is a weakness, has to control his rebounds, which is a weakness, and has to be able to cover ice post-to-post, which is a weakness. The one area he is really strong is puck handling, and that is not a requirement of this system. Smith is a goaltender that doesn't fit in our system, and in reality has watch the game pass him by.

There is a happy medium though. You don’t have to build a wall around him, but maybe you don’t have to give up more ridiculous scoring chances than almost every team in the league. Improving there should be a little more practical than finding a long term #1 at this point in the season. Bingo is right, the top line needs to get better fast. They were a minus again last night.

Isn’t it more relevant how the Flames compare against the entire league than just Edmonton?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by New Era

For comparison sake, what are the Oilers' high danger chances? They have to be worse than the Flames. How do those compare?


The real issue here is Mike Smith is not a goaltender that can survive in this system. He needs a system that is extremely structured that builds a massive shell around him and allows him to make the easy save, then have the rebounds cleared. In the Flames' system, he has to play strong positionally, which is a weakness, has to control his rebounds, which is a weakness, and has to be able to cover ice post-to-post, which is a weakness. The one area he is really strong is puck handling, and that is not a requirement of this system. Smith is a goaltender that doesn't fit in our system, and in reality has watch the game pass him by.

Not sure I agree.

Smith is a middle of the pack goaltender. That means he has warts, but he's not generally the reason you lose.

The Flames are a possession team that carries the play to a large degree, but they are aggressive in trying to keep the attack going and with that they seem to be giving up too much on the counter attack.

Last season Smith was 33rd on the easy ones, 2nd on the medium difficulty saves and 15th on the high danger.

That doesn't suggest a goaltender that needs to be protected, if any thing he was iffy on the ones from further out.

He is what he is. An average goaltender. The Flames have the roster to be better in front of an average goaltender but they haven't been.

The Oilers ... 11th in high danger against per 60. But they are low in CF% suggesting they are spending more time in their zone, and with that they won't be countered on as much because they're not really attacking all that much.