Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[getbak]

The proposed renovation for the Olympics are relatively minor.

• Accessibility upgrades for seating and washrooms
• Upgrades to power and field-of play lighting as required
• Ice plant re-commissioning
• Minor finish upgrades to concourse, club and suite levels
• Structural and mechanical capital maintenance

[You Need a Thneed]

The Saddledome cannot recieve a new roof for any remotely reasonable amount of money.

As opposed to McMahon, where lots of the structure could likely be saved in a rebuild of the stadium, there’s no saving structure and doing a proper renovation with the Saddledome.

A new roof would be a significantly heavier structure than the existing, and there’s no vertical columns underneath the edge of the current roof, i.e. where a new roof would have to be built on. It’s not impossible, but building from scratch would likely cost more, and have a significant number of compromises that wouldn’t be necessary if you just built from scratch.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ Why would the roof be heavier? Hasn’t material science progressed since the 80s? The building does have structure to support the existing roof. Columns are columns, they can be engineered.

The idea about supporting weight of concert sets is more likely due to the roof shape, not foundation. The whole point of the normal dome shaped roof distributes the load, where a saddle roof would concentrate it, and limit its relative ability to support hanging loads.

Frankly I could see how the existing roof is heavier than a more conventional new roof based on its design. (And reinforcement requirement to bear its own load)

Sorry. Doesn’t pass the sniff test at the depth and certainty of your declaration.

I get that there would be potential compromises on design and functionality and building my from scratch gives you a blank canvas. That is fine.

I don’t know. I saw a game in Edmonton. It was a newer building with some nice features, and some flaws. Good music and Edmonton lost 4-0 so it could have been worse.

Fact is the economics of a new arena stink. It is a vanity project. Maybe the owners have decided they need it but that’s what it is.

[topfiverecords]

You wouldn’t be able to do significant renovations to that level on the Saddledome purely because you only have a few months between seasons.

[Manhattanboy]

I remain in the small minority who still think that CalgaryNEXT could be a transformative project for this City.

But given the laughable manner in which NEXT was initially rolled out, followed by a dishonest presentation on a new stand alone arena by CESC and now an even more atrocious half-baked Olympic bid by the City that specifically excludes new facilities and legacy infrastructure, I am pretty much resigned to:

(a) an overwhelming defeat of the Olympic plebiscite;

(b) no new arena announcement in the foreseeable future; and

(c) the eventual relocation of the Flames.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ Why would the roof be heavier? Hasn’t material science progressed since the 80s? The building does have structure to support the existing roof. Columns are columns, they can be engineered.

The idea about supporting weight of concert sets is more likely due to the roof shape, not foundation. The whole point of the normal dome shaped roof distributes the load, where a saddle roof would concentrate it, and limit its relative ability to support hanging loads.

Frankly I could see how the existing roof is heavier than a more conventional new roof based on its design. (And reinforcement requirement to bear its own load)

Sorry. Doesn’t pass the sniff test at the depth and certainty of your declaration.

I get that there would be potential compromises on design and functionality and building my from scratch gives you a blank canvas. That is fine.

I don’t know. I saw a game in Edmonton. It was a newer building with some nice features, and some flaws. Good music and Edmonton lost 4-0 so it could have been worse.

Fact is the economics of a new arena stink. It is a vanity project. Maybe the owners have decided they need it but that’s what it is.

I don’t know why you asked if you already know all the answers.

I also don’t know how anyone can envision the removal of a stadiums roof being a feasible project. You’d have to take everything out of the building, seats and all, set up cranes inside and out, etc... It doesn’t make a lick of sense. Significantly less effort to built something new.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Do I really have to spell out why Canadian fans would be angry that a Canadian team that has no real financial issues can be moved, but the Coyotes who have needed like $500 million just to stay alive get to stay, and not only get to stay, but are apparently unmovable.

I think you are vastly overrating how much Canadians in other parts of the country care about the Flames. How many fans in Calgary were up in arms when the Jets or Nordiques moved? Most people in the GTA are Leafs fans not fans of the NHL as a whole and don't give a rats ass about the teams out west.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I think you're vastly underrating how much Canadians hate Gary Bettman. Winnipeg and Quebec City were not financial viable markets at the time. Calgary is not even close to being nonviable. To move the Flames when other markets are black holes isn't gonna be rooted on by other Canadians, especially given how Bettman has done everything but sell himself on the street to keep the Coyotes losing $30-50 million a season. It will be extremely poorly received in this country, regardless of rivalries.

Plus consider the standard that would be set for all the non-Toronto/Montreal markets (and yes Vancouver has to be included because it's mostly a fair weather fan base): Give in to owner demands, or lose your team. Who would be happy for that to be the new standard?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I think you're vastly underrating how much Canadians hate Gary Bettman. Winnipeg and Quebec City were not financial viable markets at the time. Calgary is not even close to being nonviable. To move the Flames when other markets are black holes isn't gonna be rooted on by other Canadians, especially given how Bettman has done everything but sell himself on the street to keep the Coyotes losing $30-50 million a season. It will be extremely poorly received in this country, regardless of rivalries.

Plus consider the standard that would be set for all the non-Toronto/Montreal markets (and yes Vancouver has to be included because it's mostly a fair weather fan base): Give in to owner demands, or lose your team. Who would be happy for that to be the new standard?

Why would you think that? I have seen no evidence to support that he's not liked in Canada. Any Canadians that hate him I would consider uninformed. He primarily gets booed in American cities and I think the majority of Americans don't even know why they are booing him and just do it because other people are doing it.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why would you think that? I have seen no evidence to support that he's not liked in Canada. Any Canadians that hate him I would consider uninformed. He primarily gets booed in American cities and I think the majority of Americans don't even know why they are booing him and just do it because other people are doing it.

Why wouldn't canadians hate him? That snivelling weasel has threatened to move every team in Canada minus the leafs and habs when hes not getting his way. Plus hes been an instrumental player in 3 lockouts (looking like 4 is a real possibility).

Screw that guy.


Also theres no chance the flames get moved. Dont fall for the oldest ploy in the book of arena negotiations. We need a hard reset- no king, no nenshi, clear minds. This bid is crap and the city could be better on the arena deal but the biggest blunder is CSEC's need to dick measure against Katz- it shouldn't come on the taxpayers dime.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Why wouldn't canadians hate him? That snivelling weasel has threatened to move every team in Canada minus the leafs and habs when hes not getting his way. Plus hes been an instrumental player in 3 lockouts (looking like 4 is a real possibility).

Screw that guy.


Also theres mo chance the flames get moved. Dont fall for the oldest ploy in the book of arena negotiations. We need a hard reset- no king, no nenshi, clear minds. This bid is crap and the city could be better on the arena deal but the biggest blunder is CSEC's need to dick measure against Katz- it shouldn't come on the taxpayers dime.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why would you think that? I have seen no evidence to support that he's not liked in Canada. Any Canadians that hate him I would consider uninformed. He primarily gets booed in American cities and I think the majority of Americans don't even know why they are booing him and just do it because other people are doing it.

I rest my case.

[Otto-matic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Right. So can they change the dome’s giant (and iconic) maxi pad hat out for a derby hat or top hat, give it a normal roof, put a better upper bowl on the same foundation, and without all of the excavation / foundation stuff etc?

Are the issues logistics/impossible to work with the basic dome design, budget or schedule?

Or, I guess, what would an Olympic dome refurb entail?

So where would the Flames play then when you're ripping out the entire arena to change the roof out?

[Willi Plett]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

So where would the Flames play then when you're ripping out the entire arena to change the roof out?

It would be like the outdoor classic but all season long!!

[Incogneto]

I sent this email to a friend in Edmonton who was laughing at us Flames fans. This is what the bid says, people:
-------------------------------------------------------
Holy, even YOU are not looking at the bid? Just hearing what HAS to be said, and not what IS being said? Did you think the bid was going to just come out and say 'WE ARE GOING TO BUILD A NEW ARENA' and blow away leverage with the City and the Flames?

Look at the bid. Look hard. Here are the facts: 25M Dedicated to 'Saddledome Upgrades', and $150M dedicated to a new 5000 seat arena to replace the Corral. Nenshi even said 'There is no need for a small arena in this city. This will be replaced with a new event center.'. PLUUUUUUS, the curling was marked as TBA. Do you think a bid like this isn't going to have all details nailed down?

Here is what the bid says to me:
- 'SaddleDome Upgrades' + 'New Arena' = $175M. Which happens to be ALMOST 1/3 of the cost of a new events center.
- Bid 1/3, City 1/3, Flames 1/3, Arena gets built.
- Curling is at the Corral.

- If you ask the Flames brass, they would 100% be for this bid.
- The Arena 100% gets built if this bid wins. If it doesnt, then who knows.

- This is exactly what I have been saying for 3 years. Everything right now is feet dragging between the city and the Flames for this bid. Its all about getting some Federal money in for the arena. Free money for both sides.

I wish people could understand the WHAT in what is being said, and read deeper than just the ink on the paper. This bid means 100% an arena is built. WITHOUT the bid, its gonna be a struggle.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Most people in the GTA are Leafs fans not fans of the NHL as a whole and don't give a rats ass about the teams out west.

This is gospel truth! Toronto is a Leafs town - no matter how many championships are won by Raptors/TFC/Argos/Jays - Leafs will always #1.
They could care less about the west.

In fact, my Leafs Fan Friend would love to razz me no end if the Flames moved.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Why wouldn't canadians hate him? That snivelling weasel has threatened to move every team in Canada minus the leafs and habs when hes not getting his way. Plus hes been an instrumental player in 3 lockouts (looking like 4 is a real possibility).

Screw that guy.


Also theres no chance the flames get moved. Dont fall for the oldest ploy in the book of arena negotiations. We need a hard reset- no king, no nenshi, clear minds. This bid is crap and the city could be better on the arena deal but the biggest blunder is CSEC's need to dick measure against Katz- it shouldn't come on the taxpayers dime.

First, I think most would agree that the results of the last two lockouts in particular have been extremely beneficial to the fans. I like the salary cap, I like rookie contracts, I like contract limits. I don't like a league where Nashville has a payroll of $22 million and Detroit is at $96M.

Second, Bettman brought the Jets back. And if at all possible, he will bring the Nordiques back as well.

Gary is a frightfully competent chief executive, and if he wasn't doing this job, someone worse would. I might be alone, but I pick Gary Bettman to run my league 100 times out of 100 over Roger Goodell.

The Flames won't move because the Flames make more money in the Saddledome than a lot of teams make in newer facilities. Edwards will sell the team before they move.

The TV deal is also a factor, in my view. When Edmonton was trying to get Rogers Commode approved, Sportsnet hadn't plunked down $5.2 billion over 12 years. Now, it is.

Presumably, Roger's spent that money with the expectation Canada would have seven teams vying for playoff spots. A year ago, when no Canadian teams made it to the post season, production values in the playoffs fell through the floor. I imagine the NHL might not get all its money should the Flames leave, and I don't know how many owners are willing to forego that just so Murray can be more profitable than he already is.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ Why would the roof be heavier? Hasn’t material science progressed since the 80s? The building does have structure to support the existing roof. Columns are columns, they can be engineered.

The idea about supporting weight of concert sets is more likely due to the roof shape, not foundation. The whole point of the normal dome shaped roof distributes the load, where a saddle roof would concentrate it, and limit its relative ability to support hanging loads.

Frankly I could see how the existing roof is heavier than a more conventional new roof based on its design. (And reinforcement requirement to bear its own load)

Sorry. Doesn’t pass the sniff test at the depth and certainty of your declaration.

I get that there would be potential compromises on design and functionality and building my from scratch gives you a blank canvas. That is fine.

I don’t know. I saw a game in Edmonton. It was a newer building with some nice features, and some flaws. Good music and Edmonton lost 4-0 so it could have been worse.

Fact is the economics of a new arena stink. It is a vanity project. Maybe the owners have decided they need it but that’s what it is.

The current Saddledome roof is literally supported on cables. A replacement roof would be supported on huge steel trusses - much much heavier.

Also, the way the roof is supported on cables exerts on force of the Saddledome walls - essentially pulling them towards the centre. That’s why the Saddledome walls lean outward - in part to counteract this force from the roof pulling them inward. This force is quite significant in a design like the Saddledome.

Now, if you replace the roof with a more standard arched roof, that inward force on the walls is gone, and most likely, the roof actually would exert force pushing the walls outward, instead of inward (All Trusses do this, and it needs to be taken into account by the structural engineering). There is a near zero chance that the walls could support a different roof for that reason alone.

In short, it doesn’t work.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Duplicate

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

So where would the Flames play then when you're ripping out the entire arena to change the roof out?

That’s why I was wondering if it was more schedule driven. Assuming it is.

Well, in that case, where to play? Ottawa has an empty building. Haha!

No, just kidding. They could just do it next CBA expiration. Because lockouts are the new normal.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The current Saddledome roof is literally supported on cables. A replacement roof would be supported on huge steel trusses - much much heavier.

Also, the way the roof is supported on cables exerts on force of the Saddledome walls - essentially pulling them towards the centre. That’s why the Saddledome walls lean outward - in part to counteract this force from the roof pulling them inward. This force is quite significant in a design like the Saddledome.

Now, if you replace the roof with a more standard arched roof, that inward force on the walls is gone, and most likely, the roof actually would exert force pushing the walls outward, instead of inward (All Trusses do this, and it needs to be taken into account by the structural engineering). There is a near zero chance that the walls could support a different roof for that reason alone.

In short, it doesn’t work.

Yeah, this is great, I should have looked it up.

The saddledome is actually not simply outward leaning walls, it is a sphere, with a lower plane cutting the bottom off for the base and a hyperbolic paraboloid for the roof.

http://www.arcaro.org/tension/album/saddledome.htm

It’s a pretty awesome design.