[PGT] Leafs 4 Flames 1

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Far worse players than Hamonic have fetched first round picks

I also think he will improve, 21 games

Far better ones have been acquired with a first and TWO seconds as well. Not only did he cost this team a first rounder in a very deep draft but also two seconds. Makes no sense. Some players in his league have a reputation that exceeds their actual play and Hamonic seems to be one of them, Brouwer was as well. If he doesn't make a complete 360 turn in play then I'm going to be pissed. So should everyone else

[Karl]

This was such an easy win for the Leafs. Actually, too easy tonight. Way too easy.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I've said it maybe 4 times because I believe this was a massive #### up by Treliving. I doubt any team is clammoring to get Hamonic if they have properly scouted the Flames. At this point Treliving has a lot of big wins and a lot of big misses. This Hamonic trade will go down along the lines of Brouwer if he does not pick up his play drastically. A first and two seconds can not be understated, that's a humongous payment for a player that looks so painfully average. The Isles worked the Flames big time for a player that was already showing regression last season. Sorry that I'm extremely annoyed that this team had the assets to take the next step but used them improperly.

I think Hamonic will be fine. What I am seeing is outside of Giordano, the defence in their entirety looks like a mess at times. Hamonic is probably still adjusting his play style, so I am giving him a lot of rope for the first half of the season. I do think he has had some really good games so far. Yeah, some stinkers as well, but I think he just needs some rope at the moment.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Right, you probably had players on that team with negative WAR. I'm agreeing with you. Take the best team in the NHL, have them coach Dallas Eakins v. Babock (or Torts or whoever is the best in the NHL right now).

The team with Eakins will probably have 3 less wins than the team with Babock. That's it. So this idea of blaming GG after every loss is insane. He, at worst, will cost this team 2 wins over the course of the 82 game season. If you need ~43 wins to make the playoffs, GG is probably only responsible for getting them 1.5 The other 35-40 need to come from 23 guys on the roster.

This is flat out ridiculous.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I think Hamonic will be fine. What I am seeing is outside of Giordano, the defence in their entirety looks like a mess at times. Hamonic is probably still adjusting his play style, so I am giving him a lot of rope for the first half of the season. I do think he has had some really good games so far. Yeah, some stinkers as well, but I think he just needs some rope at the moment.

It's very hard to want to give him rope when I see assets that were used on him that could've helped address far more pressing issues. Is my anger towards Hamonic overly unfair? Most likely, but it's because this team needs more offense and that's been the case for the past two years. Defense was not a priority to improve and the Flames could've added a very good top 6 player with the use of assets it took to get Hamonic. So I guess part of my annoyance with Hamonic is his sub par play and my belief that this team keeps using cap space and draft picks improperly

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by zamler

This is flat out ridiculous.

That's how WAR works. In baseball the players with the best WAR are around 10. In hockey that would be 5 wins. So having Crosby on your team instead of Curtis Lazar is worth 5 wins a year. You think the coach has more of an impact on the game instead of Crosby? Half as much? a little more. This is what you're arguing over, less than a handful of games.

[zamler]

Even Crosby floundered under a poor coach and a poor system. New coaching staff brought in and the difference was Cup wins instead of 1st or 2nd round exits, usually in embarrassing fashion.

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Just a few questions then I'm going to hangup and listen.

Do you believe that the leafs adjusted their structure to meet the flames style, or is this what Babcock has been going for since day 1?

When the leafs get structurally owned, does Babcock abandon the structure he's trying to put in place to fit what's happening in the game? Or does he stubbornly believe that his structure will win out in the long run?

When he does not make the proper in game adjustments or spark his team, is there a steady diet from the fanbase on how much he sucks?

I think this is how Babcock wants them to play every game. When they lose plenty of fans still complain about it being Babcock's fault.

It seems like Babcock had your first line figured out. And after that the Leafs have a huge advantage from lines 2 to 4.

The Leafs actually looked very flat this game on the offensive end. Didn't have the spark like usual. But they looked so good defensively it didn't matter.

Borgman has been an amazing pickup. He looked great tonight.

I think it's time to put Nylander back with Matthews.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by zamler

Even Crosby floundered under a poor coach and a poor system. New coaching staff brought in and the difference was Cup wins instead of 1st or 2nd round exits, usually in embarrassing fashion.

Who is the best coach in the league right now? Would you trade Crosby for him?

You are totally missing the point. The idea that the coach is the sole reason the Pens won those cups is flat out nuts. Take Malkin off that team and they aren't likely to win either.

There is a lot of random chance in hockey. The best teams and worst teams are separated by maybe 20 wins. That's it. If the Flames finish just out of a playoff spot, that's 2 or maybe 3 wins. So maybe you're correct. GG has a WAR of 1.5 but it wasn't enough and if we had Babcock we make the playoffs because his WAR is 3.5.

But this also means there are a lot players on the team who aren't performing too, the sum of which have the ability to impact the number of wins the Flames have far more than GG.

Finally, I've heard you say "If Johnny wasn't on fire and Smith standing on his head, we'd be in trouble".

Yeah, if our two of our ~5 highest paid players, All-Star/Superstar Forward and All-Star Goaltender who are taking up 18% of our cap space weren't playing like All-Stars we'd be in trouble. So would EVERY FREAKING TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

[ASP#26525]

Ugh, that was painful. My (totally full of himself) colleague is a Leafs fan At least he works in the Ottawa office!

And just one other thing: anyone that bangs on the glass deserves to be shot in the head. I'm looking at you, Leafs fan at the end of the game............ /visceral rage

[Psytic]

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/10/29...w-coach-or-gm/

Here is a study on the impact of changing a coach or GM on a teams success. Pretty interesting.

[badradio]

Did the system change? Flames seems to be a dump and chase team now, where before it was all about possession... they should go back to the possession game. They are abysmal at retrieving pucks, and not really built to do that.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Who is the best coach in the league right now? Would you trade Crosby for him?

You are totally missing the point. The idea that the coach is the sole reason the Pens won those cups is flat out nuts. Take Malkin off that team and they aren't likely to win either.

There is a lot of random chance in hockey. The best teams and worst teams are separated by maybe 20 wins. That's it. If the Flames finish just out of a playoff spot, that's 2 or maybe 3 wins. So maybe you're correct. GG has a WAR of 1.5 but it wasn't enough and if we had Babcock we make the playoffs because his WAR is 3.5.

But this also means there are a lot players on the team who aren't performing too, the sum of which have the ability to impact the number of wins the Flames have far more than GG.

Finally, I've heard you say "If Johnny wasn't on fire and Smith standing on his head, we'd be in trouble".

Yeah, if our two of our ~5 highest paid players, All-Star/Superstar Forward and All-Star Goaltender who are taking up 18% of our cap space weren't playing like All-Stars we'd be in trouble. So would EVERY FREAKING TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

So this isn't really an endorsement of GG so much as you saying we should turn the lynch mob towards Treliving's house for assembling this group that should motivate themselves?

[IrishSpring2013]

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[IrishSpring2013]

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[Beninho]

Originally Posted by badradio

Did the system change? Flames seems to be a dump and chase team now, where before it was all about possession... they should go back to the possession game. They are abysmal at retrieving pucks, and not really built to do that.

The second and third lines have been keeping possession (maybe not this game) but have been struggling to finish off plays. The 3M line for example only has been generating offense by cycling it to the point and crashing the net. There needs to be more creativity in their attack. Flames also are proving to struggle big time when a team clogs the neutral zone and forechecks hard, flames have had no answer for that.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Far better ones have been acquired with a first and TWO seconds as well. Not only did he cost this team a first rounder in a very deep draft but also two seconds. Makes no sense. Some players in his league have a reputation that exceeds their actual play and Hamonic seems to be one of them, Brouwer was as well. If he doesn't make a complete 360 turn in play then I'm going to be pissed. So should everyone else

A 180 degree turn would be a bit more effective.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Psytic

So this isn't really an endorsement of GG so much as you saying we should turn the lynch mob towards Treliving's house for assembling this group that should motivate themselves?

No, I'm saying it's on the players. The players are accountable for at least 75-80% of the team's WAR.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You would take a regular season Flames win over a Grey Cup championship for the city?

I am a Flames fan first and foremost. So yes I care more about the Flames win. City has nothing to do with my desire for a victory or loss. Nor do i care about any other championship for the city.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by IrishSpring2013

boil baseball.. down.. has anyonever, ever played..? its a individual sport.. hockey..? TEAM game.. TEAM. teams need coaching.. it means lots..

Flip Trotz and Desjardins last year. How much different do you think those team's respective records are?