Let's Talk about the Calgary Police Service

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

It's not just the cost of the vehicle, it's also the time it takes to set it up before it's put into service and decal costs.

As well as to de-commission it and get it ready for resale if possible. When there was more discussion about the new cars, it was stated that the cost savings to the city per car for the new black and whites was going to be roughly $6000/car.

[CliffFletcher]

Still seems weird to me. Are the British police cars pictured up-thread really that much more expensive? These are emergency vehicles, after all. Even if we could save money painting fire trucks and ambulances grey, it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Still seems weird to me. Are the British police cars pictured up-thread really that much more expensive? These are emergency vehicles, after all. Even if we could save money painting fire trucks and ambulances grey, it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Great comparison to fire trucks.

Law enforcement basically see zero resistance to budgetary requests. If the priority was pink cars with dildos on them, that's what they'd get.

At some point the the department made this a priority, any kind of 'budget' justification is just that, justification.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Still seems weird to me. Are the British police cars pictured up-thread really that much more expensive? These are emergency vehicles, after all. Even if we could save money painting fire trucks and ambulances grey, it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

I've been wondering about resale value and how much that works into it, myself.

Who's buying second hand fire trucks and ambulances? Is anyone? Is there any sort of legit market at all for that? It's never occurred to me that I could own a second hand fire truck. Can I? Where would I get one? Is it just assumed that there is no market for them and they are used up for their life cycle and then scrapped? When a fire or EMS dept is looking at vehicles does "Does this thing have any resale value other than scrap?" have to enter their thinking at all?

With the police cruisers/suv/truck/vans, you can strip the gear out, clean it up, take the decals off...and you have something that is pretty easy to resell into a large market that's looking for it.

So when a police dept is looking at vehicles...they have to be considering the resale value and the cost of getting something resale ready vs. the expected gain of the sale.

One consideration would be "are folks going to want a car this color?" Wikipedia lists the four most popular colors of cars in North America (in order) as White, Silver, Black and Grey. There is only a 5% different between those two...white at 21%, grey at 16%). Of those 4 colors, black is the easiest to 'hide' things with so that while the paint job may not be perfect, it'll still look perfect. With 19% of the cars being black, compared to whites 21%...if I was looking at which color is likely the easiest to set up for resale, I'd likely go with black over white, too. Especially since there's very little statistical difference between the two colors, but white would be a LOT more work to resale-prep.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Who's buying second hand fire trucks and ambulances? Is anyone? Is there any sort of legit market at all for that? It's never occurred to me that I could own a second hand fire truck. Can I? Where would I get one? Is it just assumed that there is no market for them and they are used up for their life cycle and then scrapped? When a fire or EMS dept is looking at vehicles does "Does this thing have any resale value other than scrap?" have to enter their thinking at all?

I guess you can - http://www.commercialtrucktrader.com...ruck%7C2000613

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Still seems weird to me. Are the British police cars pictured up-thread really that much more expensive? These are emergency vehicles, after all. Even if we could save money painting fire trucks and ambulances grey, it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Well seeing as how those British police vehicles are BMW's and Volvo's (not to mention the Lotus!), I would say yes, yes they are. And before you say those are "special" vehicles, yes, the Lotus is. But Volvo's and BMW's are commonplace in Europe as far as police vehicles go.

How would we save money painting fire trucks and ambulances a different color? Fire trucks are specialized vehicles that cost six figures to buy, and are painted red in the majority of cases, like with the CFD. There is no real reason to do a vinyl door wrap on a fire truck.

Ordering the actual vehicles from Ford makes little difference whether they are ordered in black or white. Those are the top two colors ordered by police agencies...one could argue that black is more popular, and hence would be in more stock. But for argument's sake, let's say black and white are both equal.

Where the CPS saves money is in the actual setup of the vehicle when it's delivered from Ford. All Ford gives you is a stock vehicle, with maybe some rough-in done for adding equipment.

The liveries, lightbars, sirens, spotlights, push bumpers, light/siren controllers, radios, weapon mounts, laptop mounts, etc etc are all installed after CPS takes delivery of the vehicle. It's a very labour and time intensive process, and time is money.

It simply costs less in materials, labour, and time to wrap the door of a black vehicle in white vinyl than it does to apply blue and red stripe decals to a white vehicle. Keep in mind, the old design had numerous decals, and each one had to be in a specific spot on the vehicle. The new design also has the Canadian flag, the Service slogan, etc. But the stripes were the hardest part, because they span across the entire car.

Then there's the aspect of making the cars stand out on the road...black and white are universally known as traditional colors for police vehicles. If you see a white sedan approaching, unless you can recognize it as a Crown Vic (or the new Ford Interceptor), or see the small blue/red stripes, you would have no idea it was a police vehicle. Those LED lightbars, when turned off, are completely invisible at a distance. If you see a black car with white doors, you know exactly what's coming.

Do they look 'aggressive'? I personally don't think so, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But when it comes down to it, if you need help, and you see a black and white with blue and red lights, are you going to be afraid to wave the officer down or ask for help? Unless you've broken the law, I wouldn't think so. In fact, if someone is in a state of panic and needs help, that black and white is going to be instantly identified in their mind as a police car...far quicker than the time it takes to look at a white vehicle, and see the blue and red stripes.

Lastly, as everyone knows, the police have a dangerous job, but they face the greatest risks at night. If they need to approach a house to catch a suspect (could be anything, a burglar, home invasion, drug bust, wanted suspect, etc), they obviously are not going to want to alert the bad guys to their presence. But if you're the suspect, and you look out the window, which car is easier to see? The black one, or the white one?

Anyway, I didn't mean for this post to get so long, but the point I was trying to make is, the cost savings is not in the color of the paint, it's in the actual preparation and decaling (sp?) of the vehicle. Not just on delivery, but when the car is decommissioned as well. The visibility and safety aspect is just a bonus. Is a black car harder to spot on the street if I'm speeding? Absolutely, and I'm sure that was a reason. But if you were in charge of the police service, wouldn't you do the same thing?

At the end of the day, they're the police, and they're going to be the ones you call when you need help. So what difference does it make what color cars they drive?

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Great comparison to fire trucks.

Law enforcement basically see zero resistance to budgetary requests. If the priority was pink cars with dildos on them, that's what they'd get.

At some point the the department made this a priority, any kind of 'budget' justification is just that, justification.

I don't understand what your point is. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending, I'm genuinely confused at this post.

Law enforcement don't see a lot of resistance when it comes to spending, sure. But what does this have to do with black and white cruisers? The black and whites are cheaper than the blue/white Crown Vics, not the other way around.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

I don't understand what your point is. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending, I'm genuinely confused at this post.

Law enforcement don't see a lot of resistance when it comes to spending, sure. But what does this have to do with black and white cruisers? The black and whites are cheaper than the blue/white Crown Vics, not the other way around.

The point being it's disingenuous to say they went to the black and white due to the cost. They went to the black and white due to a decision to go to the black and white, because if they wanted them white and blue they would be white and blue.

“Red and black is the new, hot colour,” he said. “Red and white trucks used to be the most popular, but red black is becoming the most popular now.”

Citing better visibility, the LaSalle Fire Service, west of Windsor, Ont., became the latest department to buy a truck with black in its paint scheme. The newest pumper’s cab is black from the windows up.

Deputy fire chief Ed Thiessen said the black is more visible against overcast skies and during the early morning and early evening hours.

A department committee formed two years ago designed the $480,000 custom-made truck. Thiessen says the colour was part personal preference, part safety.

"Studies are showing that it's more visible during daylight hours," he said.

At a scene on a highway - against the sky - Thiessen said research shows the black top is easier to see, compared to the white top trucks they have now.

“I’ve heard that, but I don’t know if there are any scientific studies to prove that,” Suche said. “A lot of the paint jobs and paint schemes are done to make the firefighters proud of their trucks and keep them clean.”

Elsewhere in Ontario, the volunteer fire department in Minto recently put a “black-top” fire truck into service.

Fire chief Chris Harrow said the decision partially based on safety.

“Part of it was the cool factor, too,” he said.

“Slime lime has pretty much gone away,” Suche said. “The firefighters didn’t like it.”

Suche said his company paints one lime green truck each year, on average.

Fort Gary still paints trucks in solid red, white and blue. A two-tone paint scheme costs about $800 more.

There hasn't been a definitive study in colours since the 1980s, Boyes said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...ucks-1.2826242

If the CPS wanted more visibility and more approachable appearance they would prioritize it and and make it happen.

They've chosen the white and black.

[calgaryblood]

Great post. The cost savings is a bonus, not the reason they switched up. That's honestly silly to even think that's the main reason.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

Lastly, as everyone knows, the police have a dangerous job, but they face the greatest risks at night. If they need to approach a house to catch a suspect (could be anything, a burglar, home invasion, drug bust, wanted suspect, etc), they obviously are not going to want to alert the bad guys to their presence. But if you're the suspect, and you look out the window, which car is easier to see? The black one, or the white one?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, police work is not all about catching bad guys but also about being there to serve the public. Police officers often wear hi-viz vests at public events to increase their accessibility, could they not take this approach with their vehicles?

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by Addick

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, police work is not all about catching bad guys but also about being there to serve the public. Police officers often wear hi-viz vests at public events to increase their accessibility, could they not take this approach with their vehicles?

They wear high-vis vests at public events, not when responding to a burglary in progress. There are times when they have to stay hidden.

They'll use that excuse for traffic enforcement too, I'm not disputing that. But if there's a burglar in your house, do you want him to see the neon green police car through the window?

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

But if there's a burglar in your house, do you want him to see the neon green police car through the window?

Umm, maybe? Why not? If he sees a cop car, isn't he likely to do a runner?

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

They wear high-vis vests at public events, not when responding to a burglary in progress. There are times when they have to stay hidden.

They'll use that excuse for traffic enforcement too, I'm not disputing that. But if there's a burglar in your house, do you want him to see the neon green police car through the window?

Sure, I assume he will then leave.

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by Cameron Swift

Umm, maybe? Why not? If he sees a cop car, isn't he likely to do a runner?

Originally Posted by flamingreen

Sure, I assume he will then leave.

Would you prefer the police catch him, or that he gets away with a precious family heirloom?

[Swift]

I'd value the safety of my family over a material possession, so yes, my preference would be that he gets the f out of my house first and foremost.

[metallicat]

I'll say this, unrelated to the vehicle chatter - police should not be hiring police. Officers and recruiters should be involved, but they shouldn't be doing interviews and making the end decision on who gets in and who doesn't.

Oh, and the polygraph should be scrapped yesterday.

[Flames_Gimp]

I love the black and whites. What's wrong with with being a bit intimidating? I'd like criminals to feel intimidated.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

Would you prefer the police catch him, or that he gets away with a precious family heirloom?

I'd prefer him not to take me hostage because he got trapped in my house.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

More realistically he'll run away if he sees police. We aren't talking about some sophisticated heist.

If the police sneak up on him, it is more likely something bad happens.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

They wear high-vis vests at public events, not when responding to a burglary in progress. There are times when they have to stay hidden.

They'll use that excuse for traffic enforcement too, I'm not disputing that. But if there's a burglar in your house, do you want him to see the neon green police car through the window?

I'd rather have members of the public be able to identify the police and receive the help they may desperately need while the odd criminal is able to evade arrest than letting the police keep their stealth cover while the public is occasionally unable to receive vital assistance. However, it is not a static choice and compromises can be made if they help achieve an optimal outcome.

The CPS already use unmarked vehicles and these are perfect for the situations that you mention. If the CPS made the primary livery highly-visible but used unmarked vehicles for stealth captures, there would undoubtedly be occasions where a stealth approach would be required but an unmarked vehicle would be unavailable while there are multiple "bright" vehicles on hand. However, that would be a trade-off that I would comfortably accept for the reason described above. In addition to the aforementioned reason, there are other benefits to having a highly-visible livery that can justify the occasional escape of a suspect. The presence of a highly-visible police vehicle can act as a deterrent by itself.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

I love the black and whites. What's wrong with with being a bit intimidating? I'd like criminals to feel intimidated.

The vast majority of police interactions with the public are not with criminals. Though your comment does expose the difference between police culture in North America and in Europe. Here, they're meant to be an intimidating tough guys ready to take down law-breakers. In Europe, they're meant to preserve the peace by public consent.