The Whoas! of Dougie Hamilton

[Buff]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I am not saying he is not going to get better I am just asking what he needs to do to get better. A lot of people are saying that the 25-26 year old Hamilton will be worth 8M / year.

Who said that? I haven't read that...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Can he play well enough in his own zone to be a Seabrook?

Seabrook has never played well in his own zone. He was and is a glorified Dennis Wideman on a good team. An offensive defenseman used properly.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

IIRC, Regehr was expected to be somewhat of an offensive guy out of junior. in his first couple years there were sure critics. Then he found his game. There may have been a bit more patience because of his accident.

Hamilton will get better - he's had three coaches and three systems in three years. I wish he'd develop his slapshot more, to be a threat on the PP, though his wrister is deadly.

Rehegr was the best shut down defenseman in the league in 2003-04. He was 23.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Rehegr was the best shut down defenseman in the league in 2003-04. He was 23.

You have anything to back that up with?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Buff

Who said that? I haven't read that...

well he has a 5.8 M x 6 contract... for the first 3 years he is playing at the 4M level..... I am being generous. that means over the last 3 years he needs to play like a 7.6 M d-man to make the contract work. and people are saying that the contract will in fact work.

I am using the UFA rates for the whole 6 years .... not the RFA rates that should apply to the first 4 years.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

You have anything to back that up with?

Just my opinion..... but no one else was able to do what he did in the 2004 playoff run where he game in and game out shut down the 10M forwards he was matched up against.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I am not saying he is not going to get better I am just asking what he needs to do to get better. A lot of people are saying that the 25-26 year old Hamilton will be worth 8M / year.

What will that future Hamilton look like? A Chara or a Keith? Can he play well enough in his own zone to be a Seabrook?

Will he be a skilled PP specialist? will he kill penalties? Will he be one of the players who you take a time out for him to play the last minute of a game with a one goal lead?

I think a Keith comparable is much more likely than a Chara or a Seabrook.

He needs more time with the skilled forwards. Last year I think he was held back by not getting enough quality PP time. In the first few games I think GG is using him more effectively on the PP and is letting him use those creative forwards to gain himself some better instincts. Against Vancouver I thought he got a couple good scoring chances by being more aggressive in the offensive zone.

I don't know if he is ever going to be a physical defensive force but his size gives him good reach and the ability to position players around him instead of brute force. More skating work would be a benefit in that regard, as well as where my thoughts on increased experience helps him anticipate more and become used to every situation.

He will probably break 50 points a couple times in his career as he moves from second pairing to first pairing. The number one thing he needs in my opinion is time to gain awareness. Giordano over the last couple of years has really shown a vision for the ice and is able to anticipate the action. I think that is teachable and if Dougie can learn that skill he can take his game to the next level.

The pure physical skills are there, and I don't see a reason for them to digress, but situational experience needs time to develop and that's what I see him gaining to make him a better player on the second half of his contract.

[N-E-B]

Do you guys see why I refused to reply to him? No matter what you say it's like talking to a wall. He doesn't read your opinions to understand, he reads them to think of ways to respond as to why you're wrong and he's right.

[Wastedyouth]

It's just so easy to get sucked in...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Why argue with Ricardo? Its a lesson in futility...

11 minutes later...

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

"Use his size more"

To what exactly. What does this even mean?

...

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

It's just so easy to get sucked in...

apparently

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

To this cogent argument I counter Dion Phanuef

another freak of nature... outstanding scoring guy with that just never got to the point where he understood the game.

Phanuef was the #6 highest scoring d-man in the NHL over his first 3 years ending when he was 22.

You must have lost your mind when Phaneuf signed his deal for $6.5m x 6, at the time it was 11% of the cap, or $8.14m in today's dollars. Hamilton's contract would be $4.3m in 2009/10 dollars.

You're basically going crazy over a $1m over payment that could easily be negated if Hamilton takes the next step.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Why would he get better with age? Why does anyone get better with age? Prime age for forwards may be early 20s but it's pretty common knowledge defensemen really come into their Prime in their mid to late 20s, look at Giordano and Brodie for examples of this.

Experience is what makes for better defensemen because it is a learning process and the more you play the better you can get. To think that a 23 year old defensemen has topped out is just ignoring the common progression of the position.

Dion Phaneuf says hi. And he isn't the only skilled young defenceman who never improved much defensively - the are a lot of one-dimensional d-men in the NHL. It remains to be seen if Hamilton's all-around play improves substantially. But it's not a given.

And that's what some of us are saying. Right now, Hamilton is not an all-around d-man. He has big holes in his game. And it's perfectly legitimate to express concern about his development, especially given his salary. Nobody is saying he won't or can't improve. But it's not inevitable, and the clock is ticking.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

just my opinion..... But no one else was able to do what he did in the 2004 playoff run where he game in and game out shut down the 10m forwards he was matched up against.

10m?

[Robo]

Fun fact he is also leading the team in shots which means he actually hits the damn net when he shoots

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

...Nobody is saying he won't or can't improve. But it's not inevitable, and the clock is ticking.

I'm pretty sure that ricardodw is indeed saying just that. He sure as hell is not commending patience to allow for this player to show any improvement.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Dion Phaneuf says hi. And he isn't the only skilled young defenceman who never improved much defensively - the are a lot of one-dimensional d-men in the NHL. It remains to be seen if Hamilton's all-around play improves substantially. But it's not a given.

And that's what some of us are saying. Right now, Hamilton is not an all-around d-man. He has big holes in his game. And it's perfectly legitimate to express concern about his development, especially given his salary. Nobody is saying he won't or can't improve. But it's not inevitable, and the clock is ticking.

I guess I just don't see the holes in his game. He puts up points, has a decent nose in the offensive zone, still makes some mistakes defensively, but it's not as if he is getting beaten every second game because of terrible positioning. Dion had a lot of obvious holes to fix that I just don't see in Hamilton. He needs seasoning, experience and vision. I've seen improvement from the start of last season to this one and that's all I expect form a 23 year old and nothing he has done makes me doubt he can't continue the trend and become a great top pairing guy very soon.

[CroFlames]

So when Dougie has a great game today, can we close this negative nancy thread? Thanks.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

well he has a 5.8 M x 6 contract... for the first 3 years he is playing at the 4M level..... I am being generous. that means over the last 3 years he needs to play like a 7.6 M d-man to make the contract work. and people are saying that the contract will in fact work.

I am using the UFA rates for the whole 6 years .... not the RFA rates that should apply to the first 4 years.

It looks to me like you expect somebody to put up tangible output to earn their contract. Fair enough. It also looks like you expect somebody to over perform in some years to make up for years where the player didn't meet your expectations. Like, if somebody got injured one year, missed three months and didn't play up to par for the rest of the year due to the injury, do you expect him to over perform the next year to make up for the previous year?

I'm not taking this any further with you. It feels like you're coming up with ridiculous ideas to troll and I'm not taking the bait anymore. Even if you aren't trolling, I don't have the time or interest to put in the effort required for you to see and consider other ideas or viewpoints.

[Strange Brew]

Based on their record over previous few years Flames aren't very good. Isn't it natural to look around and try to figure out who needs to be better in order for the team to improve? Since the Flames are a cap team, in general they need guys to play up to their contract to be a good team so it's natural to focus on higher paid guys.

For that reason, makes sense that Hamilton is a focal point. He has room to grow.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Based on their record over previous few years Flames aren't very good. Isn't it natural to look around and try to figure out who needs to be better in order for the team to improve? Since the Flames are a cap team, in general they need guys to play up to their contract to be a good team so it's natural to focus on higher paid guys.

For that reason, makes sense that Hamilton is a focal point. He has room to grow.

Yeah but it doesn't make sense that Hamilton is singled out when pretty much every other part of our core has been a hell of a lot worse than Dougie