[News] Flames only qualify 4 players. 9 go to UFA on July 1st (incl Jooris, Colborne, Ortio)

[Lil Pedro]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Why would you rather replace Joe, with a smaller version of himself 3 years ago? Shinkarek got a ways to go to prove he's a Colborne's level. I too hope he surpasses it, but why would you want to replace Joe with what is currently a lesser player?

Would rather give the chance to a younger, cheaper guy with more upside personally. We know what Joe is; he's a decent third liner who plays soft for his size. He's decent around the net and good in the shootout. I don't foresee him ever being a top 6 forward in the NHL. We don't really know what Shinkarek is yet, but would for him to get the opportunity to show it. Joe isn't a $3 million dollar player; if he wants to be he can wear another teams jersey.

[FeyWest]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Hey I have a thought here. There was, to my eye and several others, a remarkable amount of quality prospects went undrafted this year. Guys like Simon Stransky, Vlad Kuznetsov, etc. All it takes to sign these guys, who many thought were basically 3rd round picks (obviously the GM's didn't), is a contract spot. This could be why they got rid of so many guys that they'd otherwise have qualified.

Agreed and if not right away it just opens things up for future potential cheap/useful players like that. It sucks because all those players are people but we have to be careful not to get enamoured and become "Packrats" so to speak.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I'f you honestly believe this drivel you should think of taking up a hobby easier for you to understand

What's to believe? The cold, hard numbers I just laid out or your petty, fan boy-esque drive-by personal attacks?

[JiriHrdina]

Having open contract spots is important, for all sorts of reasons, but I wouldn't connect it too much to the recent draft. There may be some guys they invite to development camp, but I don't think we will see them snap a bunch up.
Apart from the guys they are still trying to sign on the NHL team, the prospects cut were likely cut because the organization doesn't view them as having NHL upside.
I'm surprised at a couple of them, but then again, none had progressed at the AHL level or were pushing for an NHL spot.
So it is what it is.

[TheScorpion]

Can't believe we could be giving up on a solid second liner who is only 26. This is just silly.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Colborne had 24 points in 55 games in 15/16 before finishing the season on a 91 point pace. His previous two years, he combined for 56 points in 144 games.

That means, prior to his 1.5 month hot streak, he had scored at 0.402 ppg pace in his career as a Calgary Flame, or a 33 point pace.

Chiasson, with all his struggles last year, has managed a 0.342 ppg pace in his career, or a 28 point pace. Prior to last season, he scored at a 0.42 ppg, or a 34 point pace.

But these are TOTALLY different players on TOTALLY different tiers I guess. It's completely inconceivable that the Flames view them as remotely similar. No way Chaisson could ever be competition for Colborne, no way at all. That's just the crazy ramblings of a weirdo firmly in the grasp of reefer madness.

I suppose there's no chance that last year was an anomaly for either player? It's just as simple as 14 point player vs 44 point player?

There's a lot more to hockey than counting stats dude. Or your desperate need to be right.

Honestly, Chiasson does more to make Jooris expendable than Colborne.

[Tinordi]

Over paying for a guy like Colborne is exactly the kind of thing a poorly run franchise would do. You absolutely cannot cripple your cap paying bottom half players more than what they're worth. I hope the flames walk from anything over 2 million. It looks like they will. Tree gets it.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Can't believe we could be giving up on a solid second liner who is only 26. This is just silly.

I have faith in Treliving. He isn't giving up on him either he can still be signed. But it's obvious he doesn't see him the way some fans see him. He's not a player that you break the bank for and not a player that pushes a team over the hump. In other words, he is easily replaceable.

[FeyWest]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

What's to believe? The cold, hard numbers I just laid out or your petty, fan boy-esque drive-by personal attacks?

It's just as reasonable to think the Flames thought Chiasson is a replacement for Colborne as it is to think it's not. Don't forget Colborne had a ridiculous shooting percentage of 19%~. And Chiasson was being used totally improperly as a Shutdown player with ridiculously high Defensive zone starts. Chiasson has put up 40+ points in the past.

Now do I see him being a Colborne replacement? No not really more likely a depth reclamation project that has some upside which helps our lack of natural right shooting RWers. If we can retain Colborne that's great. In my mind Colborne and Chiasson are not causally connected.

Not qualifying Colborne was smart and would rather not get screwed by Arbitration and be forced to a $3.5million contract when he's only worth $2.5~

[Calgary4LIfe]

I'll never really understand the hate for Colborne on these forums by many posters. Not everyone definitely, but a loud contingent.

• 20 goal scorer - people brush it off as a hot streak - I wish other players on the Flames would go on such hot streaks.
• Improvement every year
• Becoming more physical every year, especially along the boards where the Flames have the greatest weakness
• Towards the end of last year, he started developing a strong net-front presence. That is another facet that the Flames were greatly missing in their repertoire.

He has yet to plateau. He has done nothing but take strides forward with his development.


Treliving is playing hard-ball here, and good on him having the stones to do it. I like Colborne, but I also don't want to overpay for him either - I don't want the Flames to overpay for anyone on the team, as it just makes it more difficult to win championships. I bet that Colborne signs. I am betting Treliving would be a little disappointed to lose him.


Jooris will be interesting. I don't think there will be many teams lining up with contracts in hand, so I would bet he signs at a substantial pay cut. He is really a fringe NHL'er right now that for all intents and purposes could be replaced.


Ortio is the one in trouble. After the debacle of last season with the Flames, and a relatively small market for relatively unproven goalies missing a high pedigree, I think it is a choice between accepting the Flames' offer, or going back to Europe. Maybe he can get an AHL deal somewhere, but most organizations have capable young goalies coming up through the ranks. A few landing spots I guess, but it is a small market for him. Probably in his best interest to accept whatever contract the Flames present him with if he still has NHL aspirations.



I loved Arnold, but he just hasn't been taking steps forward. I think it was bad luck 2 years ago as he was looking good and seemed to be the next call-up, but then got injured. Players that have outscored Arnold in the last 2 seasons include David Wolf, Max Reinhart, Turner Elson, Kenneth Agostino, Freddie Hamilton, Drew Shore and Garnet Hathaway last season was 1 point shy of Arnold with 8 less games played. He simply had to take a step forward, but didn't. Tough to see him go, but I also really liked Reinhart and the Flames traded him for a conditional 4th (which was never met).


None of the other players were surprises to me. I don't think Agostino translated very well in the NHL.



This not only frees up contract spots, but just as importantly allows other prospects more ice time.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Lil Pedro

Would rather give the chance to a younger, cheaper guy with more upside personally. We know what Joe is; he's a decent third liner who plays soft for his size. He's decent around the net and good in the shootout. I don't foresee him ever being a top 6 forward in the NHL. We don't really know what Shinkarek is yet, but would for him to get the opportunity to show it. Joe isn't a $3 million dollar player; if he wants to be he can wear another teams jersey.

I get that, why are the two linked? Keeping Joe doesn't prevent Shinkarek from getting his chance. And if Joe is as easily replaceable as you suggest that shouldn't be an issue for Shinkarek, or if he's harder to replace, maybe that speaks to keeping Joe around if the price is right.

This mentality about having to clear roster spots, especially for Shinkarek level prospects needs to stop. Those guys will either earn their spots or they won't, you don't need to make room for the Shinkarek's of the world, they need to do that themselves.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I agree that it's pretty rare, like one every 2 years or so on average, but the Shea Weber and Ryan O'Reilly offer sheets in the last 3 or 4 years were pretty destructive for the teams even though they matched. We basically screwed Colorado over completely and played a big role in them having to move O'Reilly early and our two biggest rival teams in Vancouver and Edmonton have tons of cap room, Vancouver in particular is desperate for centres.

Unlikely, but why expose yourself to the risk, should have been priority number 1B after getting a goalie, and they've had all year.

Since the salary cap era was instituted..

8 players in 12 years have signed an offer sheet. ALL of them were matched by the players team except Dustin Penner. Shea Webber the only one of any consequence dollar wise.

they dont work and there is little chance it happens with Monahan.

Its entirely possible that the terms are already agreed upon and \treliving is just waiting to get all the interested parties together for a big presser....like around July 4th or so when they introduce the new guy(s) as well.

[FeyWest]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Can't believe we could be giving up on a solid second liner who is only 26. This is just silly.

Not sure if you are thinking not qualifying him is silly or those who are saying to just let Colborne go silly. I think it's the former and not the latter, but I had said else where, "Here's hoping we sign Colborne to a reasonable contract that is manageable and if necessary, tradeable if he can't be consistent and improve on his last year."

we just have to tread lightly and not get into a Bouma situation, I don't think we are giving up on Colborne but I think it's smart not to even let Arbitration come anywhere into this signing.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

There's a lot more to hockey than counting stats dude. Or your desperate need to be right.

Honestly, Chiasson does more to make Jooris expendable than Colborne.

Sorry, I forgot Colborne was a defensive dynamo with all this underappreciated depth to his game that no one but the enlightened fan can appreciate. I have seen the light, there is no way Chiasson could ever replace all(any?) of Colborne's intangibles and style of play, much less his production. Maybe you and Alberta Beef can teach me how to be a smarter fan? Do you have any suggestions on where to start? Maybe they make a "Being an enlightened fan for Dummies" book or something? Or maybe you're just born with the gift of being a super smart super fan, and it can't be taught? Frack, I might have to find a simpler hobby for my simple brain. I wonder if staring at paint dry or watching grass grow will be more at my level?

Also even though I have been firmly put in my place, I should point out, in case you missed it, the stats argument started when the poster I was arguing with brought stats up. His argument was nothing more than personal attacks and stats. I was responding to that.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Colborne had 24 points in 55 games in 15/16 before finishing the season on a 91 point pace. His previous two years, he combined for 56 points in 144 games.

That means, prior to his 1.5 month hot streak, he had scored at 0.402 ppg pace in his career as a Calgary Flame, or a 33 point pace.

Chiasson, with all his struggles last year, has managed a 0.342 ppg pace in his career, or a 28 point pace. Prior to last season, he scored at a 0.42 ppg, or a 34 point pace.

But these are TOTALLY different players on TOTALLY different tiers I guess. It's completely inconceivable that the Flames view them as remotely similar. No way Chaisson could ever be competition for Colborne, no way at all. That's just the crazy ramblings of a weirdo firmly in the grasp of reefer madness.

I suppose there's no chance that last year was an anomaly for either player? It's just as simple as 14 point player vs 44 point player?

So by your own math Colborne is at least a 33 point player. Do you think a 33 point player has no value? It's not 1985, 33 points in a year is a high end 3rd liner who can play 2nd line when needed.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

What's to believe? The cold, hard numbers I just laid out or your petty, fan boy-esque drive-by personal attacks?

You're manipulating numbers to try and prove an absurd point.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Hey I have a thought here. There was, to my eye and several others, a remarkable amount of quality prospects went undrafted this year. Guys like Simon Stransky, Vlad Kuznetsov, etc. All it takes to sign these guys, who many thought were basically 3rd round picks (obviously the GM's didn't), is a contract spot. This could be why they got rid of so many guys that they'd otherwise have qualified.

Very few undrafted players from this year can be assigned to the AHL. Most would have to go back to juniors or go to the NCAA.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Sorry, I forgot Colborne was a defensive dynamo with all this underappreciated depth to his game that no one but the enlightened fan can appreciate. I have seen the light, there is no way Chiasson could ever replace all(any?) of Colborne's intangibles and style of play, much less his production. Maybe you and Alberta Beef can teach me how to be a smarter fan? Do you have any suggestions on where to start? Maybe they make a "Being an enlightened fan for Dummies" book or something? Or maybe you're just born with the gift of being a super smart super fan, and it can't be taught? Frack, I might have to find a simpler hobby for my simple brain. I wonder if staring at paint dry or watching grass grow will be more at my level?

Also even though I have been firmly put in my place, I should point out, in case you missed it, the stats argument started when the poster I was arguing with brought stats up. His argument was nothing more than personal attacks and stats. I was responding to that.

Even if Chiasson replaces all of Colborne's game in every way, I would still want Colborne on the team. 20 goals is 20 goals, and is a player that seems to be improving ever year. Why throw it away simply because you MAY have found someone as good, when you have other holes that need to be filled anyways.

You throw a Colborne away if he is too expensive (something the Flames are willing to do) or if you find better players for your lineup that push him out (something that hasn't happened, or Treliving wouldn't be trying to re-sign hm).

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

You're manipulating numbers to try and prove an absurd point.

The point is I think Colborne isn't as good as his hot streak, that he's closer to his body of work from the previous 2.75 seasons. I also think Chaisson is better than he showed last year.

Exactly what stats would you have me use? Bearing in mind it was you who brought stats into this "discussion".

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Exactly what stats would you have me use?

Might I suggest using GPFBOA?

Goals-Per-Flukey-Bounce-Off-Ass