What is the most you would give up for 3rd OA?

[jmac98]

If Calgary wants or has any shot at 3rd, overpaying is going to be how it's done. It's not about a 'fair' deal, because that won't interest Colombus.

I'd move Backlund to see this deal come to fruition. We finished 26th last year. And aside from a perfect storm the year prior, finishing out of the playoffs has been a habit for this club. Keep the obvious young core, but build with and around that to discover success. We're still in a rebuilding phase all the same, so a move to gain a top talent like JP to compliment the core is an extremely favourable consideration.

[Bingo]

I think you have to look at this situation in two different ways.

1. the Jackets love Pululjarvi but either like the draft day attention, or want to entertain if someone will do something stupid. In this scenario you need to overpay for the move up three spots.

2. they don't want to take Pululjarvi with their 3rd pick because they like Brown and say Dubois better. If this is the case, they've secretly devalued their own draft spot and are looking to move down and take say Brown plus pick up assets. They are hoping someone over pays as in case 1 above, but in the end will select a more traditional return because that's better than just taking Brown at number 3 and being second guessed for 15 years.

If it's one you kick tires and move on.

If it's two, then things get interesting as the Canucks and Oilers don't have 2nd round picks and the Flames have three. Additionally, moving beyond the Flames pick is dangerous if you want your pick of centers.

So to me silliness like Gaudreau and Bennett and Backlund don't enter the discussion. It's all what Columbus thinks.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Ugh, I really want the Flames to pick 3rd, but I don't want to trade away Backlund. He's a Flame through and through, and I believe he helps the winning culture of the team. I also don't think Columbus needs him.

Maybe Columbus would want Colborne, Frolik (possibly retained), picks, or any non-Gillies prospect.

What winning culture are you referring to? Backlund has not been on a winning team since he was on the Benn-Myers-Barrie Rockets in 2009.

I am wondering why you think that Frolik would have to retained salary to be part of a trade? How much are the Flames over paying for him?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Does anyone else just love how any player signed at any point in their contract will seemingly have their value hurt by the contract if you listen to fans.

So you don't think players contracts impact their trade value one way or another?

The fact that a team can acquire Backlund and than potentially have him walk in two years definitely will factor into what they'd be willing to give up to get him.

His contract likely doesn't drag his value down too much, but it's not like this is Travis Hamonic signed to a bargain deal for 5 more years either.

[jlh2640]

I would give up nothing, It was Mathews or Laine for me. And those 2 ain't attainable anymore. Stick with 6 overall and try and grab Tkachuk.

[ricardodw]

Columbus is up against the salary cap.... Same embarrassing situation that the fellow losing teams the Oilers and Flames are in.

They have to sign RFA Seth Jones who can point to Hamilton's contract as a starting point.

Columbus is not going to take back any salary for the #3 pick. JP would will be an ELC player for them.

Also what are so many people worried about Backlund getting so much as a UFA? He need to get at least a 60 pt season to get big money..... If he does that the Flames are likely in the Playoffs the next 2 years.

Not many 40 pt forwards get even as much as 4.3M --- Frolik is the only one that comes to mind.

[jlh2640]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Columbus is up against the salary cap.... Same embarrassing situation that the fellow losing teams the Oilers and Flames are in.

They have to sign RFA Seth Jones who can point to Hamilton's contract as a starting point.

Columbus is not going to take back any salary for the #3 pick. JP would will be an ELC player for them.

Also what are so many people worried about Backlund getting so much as a UFA? He need to get at least a 60 pt season to get big money..... If he does that the Flames are likely in the Playoffs the next 2 years.

Not many 40 pt forwards get even as much as 4.3M --- Frolik is the only one that comes to mind.

And I still think we over paid Frolik

[Bingo]

^ oh come on ...

the Jackets have four or five secondary players on long term big value contracts, the Flames have a single season cap issue with numerous expiring contracts.

that is a nasty reach to try and beat the drum of an issue you bring up over and over again.

and Frolik again, nice

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I am wondering why you think that Frolik would have to retained salary to be part of a trade? How much are the Flames over paying for him?

Hmmm... would there be any other reason to retain salary?

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Columbus is up against the salary cap...

Well, boom! There it is, you answered it yourself.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Frolik is the only one that comes to mind.

Of course, because you're obsessed and he's all you can think about when you're not contemplating Hamilton!

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

^ oh come on ...

the Jackets have four or five secondary players on long term big value contracts, the Flames have a single season cap issue with numerous expiring contracts.

that is a nasty reach to try and beat the drum of an issue you bring up over and over again.

and Frolik again, nice

Perhaps you should take a step back..... Try to look at it as someone not fully vested as a Flames fan.


The Flames were right at the cap last year.... Before they dumped Hudler, Russell, Jones there was a chance that they Gaudreau/Bennett getting bonuses would come out of the 2016-17 cap.

The Flames dump 18M in cap space in 2017-18. Wideman-Engelland-Raymond-Bollig... After Bennett and Ferland are signed that will leave around 10-12 M in Cap space... to fill in 3 roster spots.

The Flames ... just keeping their current team together will be at the cap in 2017-18.

Teams that have this kind of cap problems should be coming off a SC run.


The Flames picked/ settled on their rebuilt team last season when they went for it getting Hamilton and Frolik long term and extending Gio.

last summer they made a significant move of the same magnitude of signing Bouwmeester. The Bouwmeester impact took at least 4 years to recover.

[GoJetsGo]

Q) How much would you give up for the 3rd overall pick?

A) Grrrrrr Frolik! balh blah blah Hamilton!

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Perhaps you should take a step back..... Try to look at it as someone not fully vested as a Flames fan.


The Flames were right at the cap last year.... Before they dumped Hudler, Russell, Jones there was a chance that they Gaudreau/Bennett getting bonuses would come out of the 2016-17 cap.

The Flames dump 18M in cap space in 2017-18. Wideman-Engelland-Raymond-Bollig... After Bennett and Ferland are signed that will leave around 10-12 M in Cap space... to fill in 3 roster spots.

The Flames ... just keeping their current team together will be at the cap in 2017-18.

Teams that have this kind of cap problems should be coming off a SC run.


The Flames picked/ settled on their rebuilt team last season when they went for it getting Hamilton and Frolik long term and extending Gio.

last summer they made a significant move of the same magnitude of signing Bouwmeester. The Bouwmeester impact took at least 4 years to recover.

I did some fact checking, and it looks like you're actually right in regards to our 2017-2017 cap situation. The Bouma and Stajan contracts will be the only anchors by then, yet there still won't be a lot of room to sign the top free agents.

Assuming Bennett really does well this year, we're going to have to pay him quite a bit. So in this sense, we will be happy with less cap space heading into the 2017 free agency.

Anyways, to get back on topic, this is just another reason to acquire the 3rd overall pick. Puljujarvi will already be a decent player by 2017-2018, yet he'll still be on that entry level deal. That would give us more room cap-wise.

[Point Blank]

Not gonna quote trollcardodw

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Perhaps you should take a step back..... Try to look at it as someone not fully vested as a Flames fan.

Jesus ... seriously? I should take a step back and I'm fully vested.

I think the guy that has to be bring Hamilton and Frolik into every discussion has to take a step back.

Every non budget team is going to flirt with the cap when it comes to the ebb and flow of their NHL roster. It's inevitable.

The Flames had a 3-5 year rebuild plan that didn't feature Monahan putting up 3 20 goal seasons right after being drafted, Gaudreau becoming a superstar, Bennett stepping right in, and Hamilton falling into their laps.

Those things put current pressure on the roster for cap reasons because the guys that were supposed to plug holes and lead through a rebuild are in the way.

The key is having an out, and that comes from having marketable players they can deal.

With the Bollig, Wideman, Engellend, Smid contracts all coming off the number of declining or over paid players on the roster are starting to ease up. The only guy left after next season that is way over paid is Stajan and perhaps Bouma, but in his case you're talking by what 500k?

Frolik, Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Backlund are all core pieces that have great value league wide. That's not cap hell. It may create decisions.

The blueline has three players in the top 22 in defenseman scoring, once they get out from under their expensive 5-7 Dmen contracts they have an enviable brigade.

If they feel pinched, once again the trio has value and can be moved.

So if they have to deal a Backlund they can, clears up space. If they have to deal a Frolik they can, to clear up space. This isn't the Jackets with Clarkson and Hartnell, a busted up Bobrovsky and a reach in Foligno and Tyutin.

[Vinny01]

The only really terrible cap issues the Flames had last year was spending $9M on the worst goaltending in the league. Wideman regressing hard after a 57pt season hurt as well. The Stajan contract Burke handed out was pretty much as awful as the one Darryl gave him 4 years earlier.

The team made it to the second round of the playoffs. Our GM went out and added a 6'5 smooth skating, right shot Dman who scored 42pts as a 21 year old for a mod 1st and 2 mid 2nds. Steal then and a steal now coming off a 12 goal 43pt season considering he was badly used by Hartley for the first half of the season. Frolik was a 27 year old .5ppg winger that was a PK and possession specialist. His first year wasn't great as he fought injuries but came as advertised with room to improve going forward.

I think the reason the team is in cap problems are mostly good. The bad is the poor contracts inherited by Treliving in Wideman, Stajan, Smid, the poor one he acquired in Bollig, and the bad ones he handed out in Raymond and Bouma. IMO the biggest reason we are entering cap trouble so soon is a fantastic reason. We have 2 players coming off
Their rookie ELC's that require top line cap hits. Gaudreau and Monahan are going to jump to be north of $6M each next year and deserve every penny. Having these young stud forwards is a huge reason for hope for the future. This isn't Brayden Schenn or Jaden Schwartz who are 2 younger players about to get paid at 25. These are 2 young guys at 21 and 22 that deserve top be paid as top line players. The flames rebuild is moving quickly because we have 2 young players who are having careers that resemble top 3 picks instead of 6th and 104th overall.

[Caged Great]

Colborne/Backlund + 6th + 35 + Poirier for 3 + Hartnell

Steep, sure. Pool Party is worth it though. The Flames have depth to cover the departures of Poirier and one of the two mid-20's forwards.

[Finger Cookin]

When's the last time a top 5 overall pick was traded leading into the draft (i.e. when drafting order was known)?

Some strange transaction involving the Blues and Thrashers that moved Tkachuk back and forth and left the Thrashers with the 3rd overall pick (Bogosian) in 2008. Also that year, the Leafs dealt #7 overall (Colin Wilson), a third round pick, and a 2009 second round pick, for #5 overall (Schenn).

The next most recent transaction was in 2004, when #8 overall (Alexandre Picard) and a second round pick was dealt for #4 overall (Ladd).

There were a lot more of these deals in the post expansion, pre cap NHL of 1991-2005. They're rare in this day and age.

[heep223]

I hope they get the 3 OA somehow so that they continue to collect the best names in the league. Then grab Antti Raanta

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Trollcardodw. Such an accurate nickname

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

So you don't think players contracts impact their trade value one way or another?

The fact that a team can acquire Backlund and than potentially have him walk in two years definitely will factor into what they'd be willing to give up to get him.

His contract likely doesn't drag his value down too much, but it's not like this is Travis Hamonic signed to a bargain deal for 5 more years either.

It wasn't meant as a shot at you but you see posts like that all the time and it doesn't matter if it is 1 year, 8 years or any length in between someone will always complain that it hurts the players value.

And I never said a contract doesn't affect trade value, I just think think the actual affect of the term remaining is much smaller than fans make it seem. You make is sound like 2 years gives them no opportunity to retain Backlund, but the fact is they'd have 2 years to talk to him about a new contract (a year before they can actually re-sign him) and an opportunity to move him at 2 separate trade deadlines if he doesn't want to stay.

Not that it matters, because Treliving would have to be downright stupid to move Backlund + #6 for #3 like some are suggesting. You don't give up a half a point per game two-way center to get a slightly better prospect where the difference between the two will probably be no more than 10 points a year during their prime years.