[GDT] Flames vs Sabres - 5:00 - SNet 360

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I absolutely believe in a losing culture, but some teams find a way out of it, some don't. It's a big risk.

It's obtuse to suggest is flat earth denying is equivalent to denying it exists though

If your premise is that imperial evidence is required for anything to be determined as true, then yes, logically both are equivalent.

However, the lack of empirical evidence for a losing culture is not the same as there never being any going forward. Furthermore, if I were to say a team looks like it has a bad atmosphere, no such empirical evidence could exist because it's a perceived "feeling" about something. That's like a research paper saying there isn't symmetry in pigments within red roses, therefore they don't look pretty

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I disagree. Hartley may well want to let Hiller go out on a high note but it should much more important to let Ortio go out on a high note...

There is absolutely no reason why both goalies cannot end the season on high notes. You cannot honestly believe that Ortio will not get any more starts, do you? He will have plenty of opportunities to play well and to win down the stretch. Again, this is a non-issue, and I expect the balance of playing time in the remaining 20 games will have something to do with ensuring that all the Flames' goalies have opportunities to play well. There is nothing at all wrong with that on a team that will end the season with a lottery pick.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I'll believe it when I see it.

Why would management lie about this? What would they gain by telling us Backstrom will play a few games, and then not playing him?

[Bingo]

My only thing on Ortio is hold the option. It would be stupid to not get him 7 more starts and avoid the UFA trigger. If you want to walk away on July 1st, walk away, but make sure the team holds the cards and not the player.

[Erick Estrada]

This losing culture stuff is being blown out of proportion. The culture is based off the leadership in the locker room not the play on the ice. If you have leaders in your locker room that don't accept losing it's simply not going to be accepted. The problem with the Oilers is that they drafted these young players and surrounded them with zero leadership and by the time they brought in a guy like Ference the inmates were already running the asylum.

Losing these games down the stretch means nothing going into next season. The players know full well what's going on after the deadline with the AHL call-ups. It's not like Gadreau is thinking today that they will be a lost cause next season because they are on a losing streak in March.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There is absolutely no reason why both goalies cannot end the season on high notes. You cannot honestly believe that Ortio will not get any more starts, do you? He will have plenty of opportunities to play well and to win down the stretch. Again, this is a non-issue, and I expect the balance of playing time in the remaining 20 games will have something to do with ensuring that all the Flames' goalies have opportunities to play well. There is nothing at all wrong with that on a team that will end the season with a lottery pick.

Hiller has 23 games played already, and he's shown he's not a starter. In fact, he's shown he's not even an NHL in my opinion. Most starters have about 55-70 games, which is about a 5:1 ratio.

Has Ortio been given a 5:1 ratio since Ramo has gone down?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

You could argue that any game has no impact on the season at all. I mean even the best teams lose a game now and then. Or what about the relationships between Raymond and management/coaching. Favouritism is a slippery slope, even if it's kind justified. Again, Hartley's mantra is supposedly "earned, never given". Well it's clear to me from the past games of both goalies that Ortio has earned more starts down the stretch over Hiller.

I think that unless you know exactly what the parameters of "always earned, never given" are, and how they are applied within a complex dressing room culture consisting of a mix between seasoned veterans and first or second year rookies, then you have no idea what you are talking about. It may be "clear to you," but that does not mean it is clear to anyone else inside that dressing room.

I think if Hiller wanted to end his season on a high note he needed to be better during the games he's played.

Hiller is a human being who almost certainly wants to do well. The Flames have absolutely nothing to lose by giving him opportunities to make this happen down the stretch. Shame on them for helping out a teammate in a series of games that have no impact on the fortunes of the team in the long run.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

My only thing on Ortio is hold the option. It would be stupid to not get him 7 more starts and avoid the UFA trigger. If you want to walk away on July 1st, walk away, but make sure the team holds the cards and not the player.

I don't think Hartley personally cares about Ortio's contract status. He's not going to base his decisions on who to start based on that just as he let Ortio rot as the 3rd goaltender for the first few months of the season. It's possible Treliving has discussed this with him but there's still 20 games left so plenty of time for him to get 7 starts.

[Canuck-Hater]

There is absolutely no reason to start Hiller. We know what he is and we know he won't be back next season. The Flames should let Ortio run the table and find out what he is. Ortio has earned that because I believe he has outplayed Hiller during this stretch regardless of his record. Also I think the team has more confidence in Ortio. I just can't defend Hartley on this one.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I disagree. Hartley may well want to let Hiller go out on a high note but it should much more important to let Ortio go out on a high note. Hiller can't be in the Flames' plans after this season but Ortio more than likely is. They should be doing what they can to reward his decent play of late and try to get him a win against a relatively easy opponent. Hiller can take the back seat.

If on the other hand Hartley is trying to get Hiller's confidence back so he can win a few more games for the Flames this year then I don't what to say.

There are 19 games left. There are enough games for both of them.

And yes, there are still enough games after that to throw Backstrom the bone or two that they promised him.

Oh no, the coach is playing Hiller: that must mean that he hates Ortio, or Ortio has no future with the team, or he is tanking, or...

... or maybe he has more than one goalie on his roster and they all need games.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

If your premise is that imperial evidence is required for anything to be determined as true, then yes, logically both are equivalent.

However, the lack of empirical evidence for a losing culture is not the same as there never being any going forward. Furthermore, if I were to say a team looks like it has a bad atmosphere, no such empirical evidence could exist because it's a perceived "feeling" about something. That's like a research paper saying there isn't symmetry in pigments within red roses, therefore they don't look pretty

I think you read my post wrong

[kehatch]

Spoiler!

Tough to look through this and not determine two things:

1. Hartley is making an effort to NOT start Ortio
2. Ortio didn't make a case for himself early when he was (rarely) given an opportunity

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Hiller has 23 games played already, and he's shown he's not a starter. In fact, he's shown he's not even an NHL in my opinion. Most starters have about 55-70 games, which is about a 5:1 ratio.

Has Ortio been given a 5:1 ratio since Ramo has gone down?

What does this have to do with anything?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

My only thing on Ortio is hold the option. It would be stupid to not get him 7 more starts and avoid the UFA trigger. If you want to walk away on July 1st, walk away, but make sure the team holds the cards and not the player.

Exactly. Ortio will get his 7 starts (likely the majority of games) unless injury gets in teh way.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think that unless you know exactly what the parameters of "always earned, never given" are, and how they are applied within a complex dressing room culture consisting of a mix between seasoned veterans and first or second year rookies, then you have no idea what you are talking about. It may be "clear to you," but that does not mean it is clear to anyone else inside that dressing room.


Hiller is a human being who almost certainly wants to do well. The Flames have absolutely nothing to lose by giving him opportunities to make this happen down the stretch. Shame on them for helping out a teammate in a series of games that have no impact on the fortunes of the team in the long run.

I argue they do have something to lose. They have the potential of Ortio to lose. Without knowing if he's capable of handling starter, or even a backup number of games at the NHL level, they could lose him to free agency or lose his will to want to play for the Flames.

And please don't give us this whole "shame on them" speech. Hiller has made a lot of money. The Flames, and some of their fans (such as myself) has given back to the community and had tried to help people. Hiller is not a charity case, he's an employee who has been given many, many chances to succeed but hasn't proved to be capable.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Spoiler!

Tough to look through this and not determine two things:

1. Hartley is making an effort to NOT start Ortio
2. Ortio didn't make a case for himself early when he was (rarely) given an opportunity

Your conclusion kind of ignores the fact that Ortio has started 4 of the last 5 though, no?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Then it's clear to me that the team sees no future in Ortio

I don't see how that logically follows from giving Backstrom starts.

Treliving also said Ortio was going to get the bulk of the starts.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I definitely don't think Ortio should be getting every start from now until the end of the season - I don't think it is good for his development at all, and I doubt it will show us any more than the fact that he is human and will get tired.

With that being said, I also echo many posters thoughts about 'why Hiller'? I mean, there is no way he is going to be re-signed, and with the TD expired, it isn't like the Flames can build him up into an asset that they can move. I feel Backstrom should be backing up Ortio at this point, if for on other reason than just to cross him off the list of potential stop-gaps and backups.

I am curious why they picked this game for Hiller to start. It isn't a back-to-back.

The only shred of logic behind it is that they don't want to do a disservice to Hiller, or make the organization not look like it honors contracts/situations. Even then, a bit of a reach. Ortio is either showing signs of fatigue, and Backstrom is not up to snuff yet in practice, or.. I just don't know.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Tough to look through this and not determine two things:

1. Hartley is making an effort to NOT start Ortio
2. Ortio didn't make a case for himself early when he was (rarely) given an opportunity

It may also be that Ortio's practice habits, conditioning and demeanour in the early part of the season made an impact on how many starts he was afforded in the first place.

I keep getting back to this because it is important. There is a tonne that we as fans simply will never know that goes into making roster decisions. I am practically certain that the false dichotomy you have concocted to explain the situation is not an accurate reflection of reality.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What does this have to do with anything?

You talked about balance. Ortio has 9 games played to Hiller's 23 and Ortio has been the better goalie. Ortio still has promise, Hiller does not (in all likelihood). So I'm not seeing the balance?