Thoughts on Treliving so far?

[Tinordi]

Honest question, how is Raymond a net negative on this team? Is his presence holding anyone back?

I'm honestly interested to know why Raymond is a bad and not neutral thing.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Honest question, how is Raymond a net negative on this team? Is his presence holding anyone back?

I'm honestly interested to know why Raymond is a bad and not neutral thing.

Well, without him it would give a farm hand an opportunity and not flushing $3.15m down a toilet might make the odd owner crack a smile as well.

I don't think I ever saw a player that flubs offensive plays for that kind of salary more than Raymond.

Raymond is garbage...period.

[Tinordi]

So who is Raymond holding back and how is his cap hit negatively impacting the team's cap structure?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

So who is Raymond holding back and how is his cap hit negatively impacting the team's cap structure?

Shore, and it doesn't really hurt that much unless the Flames want to sign more than 1 Frolik type of player this off season.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

So who is Raymond holding back and how is his cap hit negatively impacting the team's cap structure?

Are you his brother or something? how about instead of asking for his negatives on the team(which is easy)...state his positives.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by T@T

Are you his brother or something? how about instead of asking for his negatives on the team(which is easy)...state his positives.

I'm just trying to figure out if the criticism of the Raymond signing in rooted in a real negative to the team or whether it's just unhinged reactionary fan slather.

You're doing a good job so far of convincing me that it's definitely one of those two explanations.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

So who is Raymond holding back and how is his cap hit negatively impacting the team's cap structure?

Anyone that is forced to play with Raymond. When the guy can't execute the most basic of plays, and plays die on his stick, that hurts everyone playing with him. The guy's only positive to his game anymore is he manages to get in the way a lot. Sadly, that happens in the offensive zone as much as in the defensive zone. I don't know how anyone who watches Flames games can honestly defend Mason Raymond's play and suggest he is not holding his line mates back.

I think the Flames have been lucky that there haven't been any contracts come up that could use Mason Raymond as a comparable. You hope that you don't have that contract around when it comes time for comparables or the team is going to have to up the ante. That is the negative of having bad contracts around. It is one thing to have a comparable from an other team, as you can make a much better argument about different environments having different outcomes. But when you have a bad contract on the team, and that guy gets outplayed by everyone, it is really hard to argue that contract away.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by New Era

Anyone that is forced to play with Raymond. When the guy can't execute the most basic of plays, and plays die on his stick, that hurts everyone playing with him. The guy's only positive to his game anymore is he manages to get in the way a lot. Sadly, that happens in the offensive zone as much as in the defensive zone. I don't know how anyone who watches Flames games can honestly defend Mason Raymond's play and suggest he is not holding his line mates back.

I think the Flames have been lucky that there haven't been any contracts come up that could use Mason Raymond as a comparable. You hope that you don't have that contract around when it comes time for comparables or the team is going to have to up the ante. That is the negative of having bad contracts around. It is one thing to have a comparable from an other team, as you can make a much better argument about different environments having different outcomes. But when you have a bad contract on the team, and that guy gets outplayed by everyone, it is really hard to argue that contract away.

Do you remember when Raymond was signed? He had just come off a 0.5 PPG season with the Leafs. A 29 year old, 45 point player? I'd say that getting him at 3 x $3m was a good deal at the time. The fact that he hasn't got it done is nothing to do with Treliving and it doesn't make it a bad contract.

When it was signed, it looked fine. Blaming Treliving for making a reasonable deal 18 months ago just because Raymond has not produced is unfair on the GM.

[PeteMoss]

Lesson to be learned - everyone's drafts look great for the first couple of years until reality sets in and the vast majority of players don't make the NHL.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Do you remember when Raymond was signed? He had just come off a 0.5 PPG season with the Leafs.

Everything is overblown with the Leafs. They should have considered the type of player he was in Vancouver more so than his time Toronto.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by New Era

Everything is overblown with the Leafs. They should have considered the type of player he was in Vancouver more so than his time Toronto.

Uh, he was about the same, a 0.5 point per game player, and was used mostly on the second line during his time.

I think his back injury has worn him down more than anyone knows. The way he skates makes me think he's never fully recovered from it. Not making excuses, because I think he's capable of more, but I remember him in Vancouver pretty well, and he never looked this awkward in his time there.

He also had 23 points in 57 games for us last year, which is just a small drop in his career numbers. Not terrible compared to previous performances.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Do you remember when Raymond was signed? He had just come off a 0.5 PPG season with the Leafs. A 29 year old, 45 point player? I'd say that getting him at 3 x $3m was a good deal at the time. The fact that he hasn't got it done is nothing to do with Treliving and it doesn't make it a bad contract.

When it was signed, it looked fine. Blaming Treliving for making a reasonable deal 18 months ago just because Raymond has not produced is unfair on the GM.

Pretty sure that deal was criticized from Day 1. Raymond's deficiencies were well known, and he wasn't the same player from his earlier Canuck days. He made the Leafs off a PTO, in other words had no value. He had wanted to sign with the Flames that offseason but Feaster had no interest.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by saillias

Pretty sure that deal was criticized from Day 1. Raymond's deficiencies were well known, and he wasn't the same player from his earlier Canuck days. He made the Leafs off a PTO, in other words had no value. He had wanted to sign with the Flames that offseason but Feaster had no interest.

Disagree. Concerns and criticism are different IMO. Raymond was a risk who didn't quite pan out the way we hoped (or panned our perfectly, but situations/expectations didn't match him favorably). I don't fully think that's on Treliving. IIRC, the only other decent and realistic FA worth targeting that year was Vrbata who is currently making 4Mil. Honestly what other options did Treliving have?

Raymond is a consistent .4 to .5 PPG player with deficiencies. We knew that. He's no super star. He played to approximately that PPG level last year. He was brought in to fill in the void left by Cammellari.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...=mason+raymond

Polarizing for sure though from the looks of this thread. Concerns for sure, but not unanimously criticized as you seem to be trying to imply.

[Jason14h]

The fact that he hasn't got it done is nothing to do with Treliving and it doesn't make it a bad contract.

What? It does make it a bad contact. This is the definition of a bad contract. Contracts should be judged 100% of player performance.

Market value drives a players contact in FA (mostly) Whoever pays the most is the team that valued that player the most.

It isn't like buying food at a store.

When I heard 3 for 3.3 million I actually thought that was the TOTAL contract and still didn't like it.

These are the types of players you build a bad team with, regardless of cost (And his cost is outrageous)

[Jason14h]

So who is Raymond holding back and how is his cap hit negatively impacting the team's cap structure?

I don't think most are blaming Raymond for 'holding back' or stunting a players development. However, having a role player who could win faceoffs or kill penalties would be nice.

And the cap hit and contract? Well it's going to be 10 million in real money after next year that could have been spent to upgrade goaltending, hiring scouts, hire analysts, or even put into the owners pockets.

Basically anything would have helped this team more then giving it to Raymond.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Honest question, how is Raymond a net negative on this team? Is his presence holding anyone back?

I'm honestly interested to know why Raymond is a bad and not neutral thing.

Raymond plays on the powerplay, and IMO that is a big negative. The team is 30th on the PP, he has zero PP points despite 1:21 of PP time per game, while Frolik and Granlund sit on the bench. I find it hard to believe that either of those players would do worse.

Colborne is in the same boat, zero PP points with almost 2 minutes of PP time per game.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Raymond also kills any hope of cycling the puck in the offensive zone. Which means his line will always struggle to retain possession and often end up turning it over. He isn't amazing in the defensive zone either.

I see him dragging his line down all the time.

[FeyWest]

I think we should never trade with the Leaf's ever again because it has NEVER seemed to work out in our favor. As much as I like Stajan he never really lived up to what we all were expecting. Ban Leaf's/Flame's trades from now on please Treliving!

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

When I heard 3 for 3.3 million I actually thought that was the TOTAL contract and still didn't like it.

These are the types of players you build a bad team with, regardless of cost (And his cost is outrageous)

Same here. IIRC he was trying to sign with the Flames the prior year (don't remember the $/term) but ended up with a PTO and IIRC signed for <$1M. $3M for his production, fine, but 3 years?

Saying that, as that was arguably his worst move... that is orders of magnitude better than previous regime's.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Gave Treliving a C vote.

The good:
The 2 drafts.
Frolik is a homerun in my estimation.
The bombshell trade on draft day for Hamilton.
Hiller was good. Big piece of the puzzle to get the playoffs.
Engelland has been adequate.

The bad:
Raymond. No way to put it. I wanted Raymond come UFA day. It happened, I was hoping for Leafs Raymond, not post back injury Canuck Raymond. Disappointing deal.
The lack of urgency to do anything about the 3 goalie situation. Essentially letting Hartley fart around too long bouncing back and forth between the goalies.

At the end of the day, it's still early-ish rebuild time and Treliing has put together some nice pieces into the roster. The next few steps he takes will dictate a lot of things going forward. I just hope he is active come deadline day and doesn't foolishly re-sign guys like Russell and Hudler (ugh that hurt to say that, Huds is my favorite Flame) .

You gave him a C when the positives outweigh the negatives 3:1? And the positives were much, much more impactful than the negatives? What would you give him if the Hamilton trade didn't happen? An F, I'm assuming by how you're weighting his transactions. You even agreed with the Raymond signing at first, one of your two listed negatives.

EDIT: missed your second post, but I still don't understand. Brodie was signed for market value at the time IMO. If you're going to hold Raymond's regression against Treliving, how can you laud him for Brodie's ascension into stardom?