Joe Thornton says GM Doug Wilson "needs to stop lying, shut his mouth."

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

You have always been one of the harshest Iginla critics. Hard to take what you say seriously when this is taken into account.

The fact Iginla never had a true No. 1 centre was the biggest mistake this franchise made from 2004 onward. It is not entirely inaccurate to suggest those were some very uneven teams when we were completely relying on a RW to carry the load.

They never finished low enough to draft one, it's not like they grow on trees. Getting a guy like Langkow is about as good as you can reasonably expect from the trade/UFA market.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

They never finished low enough to draft one, it's not like they grow on trees. Getting a guy like Langkow is about as good as you can reasonably expect from the trade/UFA market.

Nowhere did I blame anyone in specific for it, but the fact remains it was one of the weakest lineups of centres of any playoff team in the last decade.

Anyone remotely suggesting we didn't win or contend for cup because Iginla didn't carry his weight in the playoffs is out to lunch. And that is was a couple people are insinuating on the last page (as they have done in the past).

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

They never finished low enough to draft one, it's not like they grow on trees. Getting a guy like Langkow is about as good as you can reasonably expect from the trade/UFA market.

So if you actually look at the Langkow's stats, he's actually right up there with the top 30 centers in scoring. Not to mention, Langkow has a FAR better 2-way game then half the centers above him, which is much more important then just stats. (I'm looking at before coming to Calgary, in Calgary, he's top 20 in centers)

2005-06 : 31st in points, 20th in goals
2003-04 : 24th in points, 19th in goals
2002-03 : 35th in points, 35th in goals (2 goals, 3 points away from cracking top 30)
2001-02 : 17th in points, 12th in goals

Really consistent stats, really consistent games played, even better away from the puck and making room for his linemates...... really underrated player.

And all of this, with Huselius/Tanguay setting up sweet passes, anyone remember some of the magic in the 9-2 romping?

Also, despite him taking a nosedive right after we picked him up, Olli used to produce before we picked him up. '

All in all, talent was never the issue, we had we had tons of it.

(sorry this went way off topic)

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

All in all, talent was never the issue, we had we had tons of it.

You maintain this, only to justify your long standing slights at Iginla.

At the end of the day, that team was built very poorly through the middle and relied heavily on one top line RW to carry the offense in the post season.

It is why the team never really contended after the run in '04. And I'll say it again (because you'll continue to dance around it without directly saying it): To even remotely suggest Iginla was somehow a no-show in the playoffs and that is why our team didn't contend for a cup during his time - is asinine.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Selective memory? I am usually an Iggy apologist but keep in mind that at one time he had kipper, regehr, phaneuf, bouw playing behind him and the much vaunted on CP jokinen as his centre.

Also, Iggy played like ass in game seven. The best player that night was Conroy. By your reasoning whether or not he was injured is irrelevant.

Phanuef and Bouwmeester would be my examples of why Iginla never had the supportive cast.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by nik-

Most players don't elevate their games in the playoffs when you actually look at it.

Marleau was the one who actually disappeared for a long time in San Jose and somehow skated by without backlash. Thornton always caught the flak. Since then Marleau has had a couple decent years of playoffs and as a result the focus on Thornton is worse.

It's an undeserved reputation imo.

I disagree. Thornton isn't like "most" players. Thornton, for years, belonged to the select group of players who were considered one of the best players in the league. Take away his playoff performances, was Thornton not consistently one of the top 5 guys you pick to build your team around during his prime years?

I actually remember things differently and remember Marleau being consistently a good playoff performer until recent years where expectations were high for the Sharks and he got shut out.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

So if you actually look at the Langkow's stats, he's actually right up there with the top 30 centers in scoring. Not to mention, Langkow has a FAR better 2-way game then half the centers above him, which is much more important then just stats. (I'm looking at before coming to Calgary, in Calgary, he's top 20 in centers)

2005-06 : 31st in points, 20th in goals
2003-04 : 24th in points, 19th in goals
2002-03 : 35th in points, 35th in goals (2 goals, 3 points away from cracking top 30)
2001-02 : 17th in points, 12th in goals

Really consistent stats, really consistent games played, even better away from the puck and making room for his linemates...... really underrated player.

And all of this, with Huselius/Tanguay setting up sweet passes, anyone remember some of the magic in the 9-2 romping?

Also, despite him taking a nosedive right after we picked him up, Olli used to produce before we picked him up. '

All in all, talent was never the issue, we had we had tons of it.

(sorry this went way off topic)

Langkow was a really good player for a few years there for us, but I would classify him as an elite 2nd liner. It wasn't meant to discredit him when I said he's the best you could do in the trade/ufa market. The other players you mentioned were also good 2nd line players, even Tanguay I'd argue. I think what people mean when they say Iginla was never surrounded with quality help, they really mean true 1st liners. Imagine if Iggy had a Gaudreau to play with back then... too bad our drafting was so bad while Iginla and Kiprusoff were in their prime.

There was plenty of good players during the Iggy years but only two great ones, and one was a goalie. Lots of reasons for it, but it's hard to argue Iginla didn't deserve more.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

You have always been one of the harshest Iginla critics. Hard to take what you say seriously when this is taken into account.

The fact Iginla never had a true No. 1 centre was the biggest mistake this franchise made from 2004 onward. It is not entirely inaccurate to suggest those were some very uneven teams when we were completely relying on a RW to carry the load.

A star player shouldn't need an elite center to make him better. Iginla had good seasons on his own right. Its not like he would have morphed into a perennial 120pt player with a moderately better option at center than what he had.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

A star player shouldn't need an elite center to make him better. Iginla had good seasons on his own right. Its not like he would have morphed into a perennial 120pt player with a moderately better option at center than what he had.

Not a lot of succesful (cup winning) star wingers out there who didn't have a star center to play with. Sure, maybe Iginla didn't NEED a star center to play better, but I'd argue he needed one to win a cup. Teams don't win cups with a winger as their top player, it just doesn't happen.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

So if you actually look at the Langkow's stats, he's actually right up there with the top 30 centers in scoring. Not to mention, Langkow has a FAR better 2-way game then half the centers above him, which is much more important then just stats. (I'm looking at before coming to Calgary, in Calgary, he's top 20 in centers)

2005-06 : 31st in points, 20th in goals
2003-04 : 24th in points, 19th in goals
2002-03 : 35th in points, 35th in goals (2 goals, 3 points away from cracking top 30)
2001-02 : 17th in points, 12th in goals

Really consistent stats, really consistent games played, even better away from the puck and making room for his linemates...... really underrated player.

And all of this, with Huselius/Tanguay setting up sweet passes, anyone remember some of the magic in the 9-2 romping?

Also, despite him taking a nosedive right after we picked him up, Olli used to produce before we picked him up. '

All in all, talent was never the issue, we had we had tons of it.

(sorry this went way off topic)

I know o say this all the time, but do you know who reminds me a lot of Daymond Langkow?

Sean Monahan.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Langkow was a really good player for a few years there for us, but I would classify him as an elite 2nd liner. It wasn't meant to discredit him when I said he's the best you could do in the trade/ufa market. The other players you mentioned were also good 2nd line players, even Tanguay I'd argue. I think what people mean when they say Iginla was never surrounded with quality help, they really mean true 1st liners. Imagine if Iggy had a Gaudreau to play with back then... too bad our drafting was so bad while Iginla and Kiprusoff were in their prime.

There was plenty of good players during the Iggy years but only two great ones, and one was a goalie. Lots of reasons for it, but it's hard to argue Iginla didn't deserve more.

As the stats show, Langkow is without a doubt a No 1 C. He might not be elite the same way Joe Thornton, Crosby and Lecavlier were, but he was without a doubt No 1 C. I showed he was top 30 in points, and if you look at the actual list, I would take him over half the players that have more points then him (i.e. Michael Nylander, Horcoff, Conroy, Mike Sillinger, Mike Comrie, Jason Allison) so really IMO he is a top 20 center in the league.

You'd argue Tanguay is a 2nd liner? Crazy... the guy is a point a game player, and for half a season led the NHL in points. Today, he is a 2nd line center and you could argue he is borderline 1st liner.... in his prime, he is without a doubt a 1st liner. If Tanguay is a 2nd liner, then Gaudreau is a 3rd line winger. (ok exaggerating, maybe but 2nd line winger. Tanguay was VERY good in his prime)

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Not a lot of succesful (cup winning) star wingers out there who didn't have a star center to play with. Sure, maybe Iginla didn't NEED a star center to play better, but I'd argue he needed one to win a cup. Teams don't win cups with a winger as their top player, it just doesn't happen.

This has been argued ad nausea, so I don't feel like going on repeat, but while its often better than not to be solid down the center (especially winning key faceoffs) its not a requirement. Anybody who watched the Flames during those playoff years, nobody would tell you we lacked firepower, that was never a problem.

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

I know o say this all the time, but do you know who reminds me a lot of Daymond Langkow?

Sean Monahan.

Agreed, many say he was more like Joe Nieuwendyk but Langkow is more fresh in my memory, so he reminds me more of Langkow. But apparently me calling Langkow a top line center has really upset some people here lol so I don't want to ruin anyone's day by suggestion so.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

As the stats show, Langkow is without a doubt a No 1 C.

Your entire argument is bunk, and aimed at discrediting Iginla.

The reason Langkow has several seasons looking like a No. 1 Centre is because he played on Jarome Iginla's line. Neither Lankow, or Huselius were true, elite top line players when they weren't with Iginla.

No one is saying the Flames team from 2004-2011 had no talent / firepower. But they were severely lacking down the middle and with top line elite talent.

This is being discussed because a page ago a few people were talking about Thornton's reputation for disappearing in the playoffs. This is what you are trying to insinuate with Iginla while not having the stones to come right out and say that.

It's something you've done for years and it's tiresome.

Calgary was a fringe playoff team throughout most of Iginla's years not because he wasn't elite and a playoff preformer, but because Calgary was one of the shallowest teams down the middle and completely leaned on him (a winger) to carry their offense.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

A star player shouldn't need an elite center to make him better. Iginla had good seasons on his own right. Its not like he would have morphed into a perennial 120pt player with a moderately better option at center than what he had.

This was already pointed out, but cup caliber teams DO require centres that make their wingers better. Iginla had several great seasons that made everyone around him better. True championship teams have several players like that, and all throughout his time here he was the catalyst making several other players look better (and be paid for it) in the process.

Hard to say how much better a true elite centre would have made Iginla, but it's not hard to say how much better that would have made the team as a whole, which was not being held back because Iginla didn't show up in the playoffs.

[cam_wmh]

We needed another centre compliment to Langkow, in hindsight it would've been ideal to re-sign Conroy as well.

[Thor]

I miss hearing from Conroy

[AcGold]

The idea that Iginla held the team back is insane, utterly insane. The fact that he scored 30 goals every year is astonishing, he succeeded in spite of his teammates not because of them. Iginla and Kiprusoff literally carried the team into the playoffs for years.

Opposing coaches would come out and say their strategy was team up on Iginla. For years he'd be triple teamed entering the zone only to pass it off to Conroy, Glencross, Jokinen or even Kris freaking Kolanos and they'd bobble the puck and kill the scoring chance. That he scored 30 goals while being triple teamed on a nightly basis is crazy. I honestly can't believe he did it. There'd be nights he'd have guys clinging to him and he'd be shaking them off while shoving the puck to the net with one hand. What a terrible analysis there Phanuthier.

[killer_carlson]

I wonder what we would have been like had Sutter decided to offer Regehr instead of Leopold as Boston had apparently asked when trading Thornton.

Yelle, Kobasew(?), Leopold is what we offered

Yelle, Kobasew, Regehr is what they wanted.

[PeteMoss]

Thornton's playoff rep is overstated. He was one of the best players in the game and still for a large part is the straw that stirs the drink for the Sharks (I'd love to see Pavelski's stat split playing with Thornton and not playing with Thornton).

I'd take the guy on my team any day and live with his 0.8 playoff PPG.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I wonder what we would have been like had Sutter decided to offer Regehr instead of Leopold as Boston had apparently asked when trading Thornton.

Yelle, Kobasew(?), Leopold is what we offered

Yelle, Kobasew, Regehr is what they wanted.

Not sure if the deal would have brought the Flames a cup but I would imagine Iginla would have moved up four or five spots on the NHL all time goal scoring list. In fact I wouldn't have been surprised if he hit a 60 goal season playing as Thornton's RW. Say what you want about him in the playoffs but he had that rare talent of always being able to put the puck right where a shooter wanted it. Iginla never played with a center that had passing skills remotely comparable to Thornton who I like to compare to Adam Oats as a pure passer of the puck.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Thornton's playoff rep is overstated. He was one of the best players in the game and still for a large part is the straw that stirs the drink for the Sharks (I'd love to see Pavelski's stat split playing with Thornton and not playing with Thornton).

IIRC and FWIW the Sharks are something like 8 percentage points better in puck possession. with Thornton on the ice than without him. There aren't a lot of guys in the NHL you can say that about.