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Old 09-20-2014, 11:32 PM   #161
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Do you even believe yourself? Datsyuk and Zetterberg would blow Kessel off the map if they were allowed to abandon their defensive responsibilities like Phil does. No way Kessel would ever put up more than 65 points if he had to play the way they do.

Plus JVR a great winger? Guy is good, but how many 40 goal or 70 point seasons has he had again? Really great player, or luckey someone thought Luke Schenn was a lot better than he really is?
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:32 PM   #162
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Patrick Kane is not better than Kessel defensively. Zetternerg and Datsyul are also not close to Kessel offensively and have peaked already. Phil Kessel also has 13 goals, 21 points in 22 playoff games BTW. If he stayed on Boston he has a cup ring. It's a team game. Just like Toews has won nothing if he's on Toronto right now.

And Rielly and Nylander, JVR are already written-off as players you can't build around to win
' Be honest, you wouldn't say that about those players on the Flames.

I included Z-berg and Datsyuk as examples of what they were on cup winning teams, and that was 6 years ago, so of course they aren't the same players now.

I never said that they weren't good players. You are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is unlikely that they become one of the top 20 or so players in the NHL and that unless the leafs have that it'll be difficult to see them win. I would expect each of those guys to eventually become top 200 guys (top 2 D-man in Reilly's case and solid top 6 forwards in JVR/Nylander's) however, just because you have solid talent doesn't mean that you're going to win.

If you look at all the cup winning teams, they were stacked.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:34 PM   #163
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Who cares? What team doesn't have that question about a couple of core pieces in regards to their prospects? I like Lupul, but is it really that devastating if he's not the same player in a couple of years?
I'm not talking devastating, I'm talking status quo. Nothing bad has to happen to the Leafs for them to become bad because they are a bad team. They need to do something to stop being a bad team.

If Nylander comes in and simply replaces Lupul in the top 6 in a couple years, the Leafs "gain nothing." And since they are a bad team, they remain a bad team.

They would either need Nylander to do more than replace Lupul, which is possible (but the opposite is true as well), or have another forward prospect behind Nylander make an impact. The problem is there's not really much in way of the depth behind Nylander. Which means they'll have to rely on UFA's, and we know how that goes.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:37 PM   #164
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I'm not talking devastating, I'm talking status quo. Nothing bad has to happen to the Leafs for them to become bad because they are a bad team. They need to do something to stop being a bad team.

If Nylander comes in and simply replaces Lupul in the top 6 in a couple years, the Leafs "gain nothing." And since they are a bad team, they remain a bad team.

They would either need Nylander to do more than replace Lupul, which is possible (but the opposite is true as well), or have another forward prospect behind Nylander make an impact. The problem is there's not really much in way of the depth behind Nylander. Which means they'll have to rely on UFA's, and we know how that goes.
Nylander was just ranked the 4th best prospect in the world. He's expected to do more than Lupul did this past season (And again, big Lupul fan).

It does seem like expectations get dimmed once any young player is drafted by the Leafs.

You can replace a Lupul in a trade AND have Nylander.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:39 PM   #165
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I included Z-berg and Datsyuk as examples of what they were on cup winning teams, and that was 6 years ago, so of course they aren't the same players now.

I never said that they weren't good players. You are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is unlikely that they become one of the top 20 or so players in the NHL and that unless the leafs have that it'll be difficult to see them win. I would expect each of those guys to eventually become top 200 guys (top 2 D-man in Reilly's case and solid top 6 forwards in JVR/Nylander's) however, just because you have solid talent doesn't mean that you're going to win.

If you look at all the cup winning teams, they were stacked.

I really think on any other Team, Morgan Rielly isn't seen as a maybe for being a top pairing D-Man. And JVR is already above being a "Solid: top 6 forward. He's a legit top line winger.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:40 PM   #166
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Do you even believe yourself? Datsyuk and Zetterberg would blow Kessel off the map if they were allowed to abandon their defensive responsibilities like Phil does. No way Kessel would ever put up more than 65 points if he had to play the way they do.

Plus JVR a great winger? Guy is good, but how many 40 goal or 70 point seasons has he had again? Really great player, or luckey someone thought Luke Schenn was a lot better than he really is?
What B.S. Phil is better than both offensively. Stop using defense as an excuse. Both are injury prone and past their primes. And how much point would both score if they abandoned defensive responsibilities? 140 points? Phil gets 80 yearoly with Bozak.

So a winger needs multiple 40 goal, 70 point seasons to be great?
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:42 PM   #167
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Nylander was just ranked the 4th best prospect in the world. He's expected to do more than Lupul did this past season (And again, big Lupul fan)
A prospect just drafted 8th overall in 1 draft year is now the 4th best prospect in the world?
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:45 PM   #168
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A prospect just drafted 8th overall in 1 draft year is now the 4th best prospect in the world?
ESPN just ranked him 4th best prospect in the world.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:46 PM   #169
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ESPN just ranked him 4th best prospect in the world.
That explains it.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:48 PM   #170
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That explains it.
The List:

Top 10, Players
1 Jonathan Drouin LW Tampa Bay Lightning QMJHL 1
2 Aaron Ekblad D Florida Panthers OHL IN
3 Sam Bennett C Calgary Flames OHL IN
4 William Nylander RW Toronto Maple Leafs SHL IN
5 Sam Reinhart C Buffalo Sabres WHL IN
6 Nikolaj Ehlers LW Winnipeg Jets QMJHL IN
7 Kevin Fiala LW Nashville Predators SHL IN
8 Leon Draisaitl C Edmonton Oilers WHL IN
9 Michael Dal Colle LW New York Islanders OHL IN
10 Evgeny Kuznetsov C Washington Capitals NHL
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:53 PM   #171
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The List:

Top 10, Players
1 Jonathan Drouin LW Tampa Bay Lightning QMJHL 1
2 Aaron Ekblad D Florida Panthers OHL IN
3 Sam Bennett C Calgary Flames OHL IN
4 William Nylander RW Toronto Maple Leafs SHL IN
5 Sam Reinhart C Buffalo Sabres WHL IN
Don't see anything wrong with having the 2nd overall ranked behind the 7th overall and then using that list to announce Nylander as the 4th best prospect in the world?
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:55 PM   #172
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Nylander was just ranked the 4th best prospect in the world. He's expected to do more than Lupul did this past season (And again, big Lupul fan).

It does seem like expectations get dimmed once any young player is drafted by the Leafs.

You can replace a Lupul in a trade AND have Nylander.
One person's opinion does not make it a fact.

All the GMs that picked ahead of TO, and every other list out there disagree.

He was picked 8th a couple months ago (no hockey since). Add in at least 10-20 (probably more) superior prospects from the prior couple years and your precious little boy sits somewhere in the 20-50 range.

But keep fapping to that ESPN article if it does it for ya!
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:55 PM   #173
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You realize that really doesn't mean much of anything. One dude picking names out of a hat isn't any sort of divining rod. He was drafted 8th and ranked around there or lower on almost every list. Tell me: what has changed since the draft? Oh right, the Toronto media started covering him.

Lupul was drafted 7th, Nylander 8th. Suddenly, with no games played by anyone, he's now number 4 of all prospects, nevermind his own draft. Good logic there

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Old 09-20-2014, 11:56 PM   #174
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I really think on any other Team, Morgan Rielly isn't seen as a maybe for being a top pairing D-Man. And JVR is already above being a "Solid: top 6 forward. He's a legit top line winger.
It's hard arguing with someone that is extremely optimistic of everything going perfectly.

Real life isn't NHL 2015. It's not easy to win and the Leafs don't have the amount of depth and talent to win unless some unexpected developments occur. Namely someone like Nylander becomes the next Stamkos/Ovechkin or Reilly becomes the next Duncan Keith. It could happen, and that would change the odds in the leafs favour, but right now, there are too many teams that have better players and better prospects.

I'd consider all of LA, Anaheim, Colorado, Dallas, Chicago, Tampa, Detroit, Minnesota, St Louis, and Florida (yes, the Panthers) to be ahead of Toronto in terms of overall organizational talent, and there are a couple others that are close.
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:04 AM   #175
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Pitt, SJ, Habs, Bruins, NY, NJ...
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:16 AM   #176
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Pitt, SJ, Habs, Bruins, NY, NJ...
To be fair, Toronto might not be as good as Pittsburgh, SJ, NYR or NJ in the NHL, but they do have a lot better prospects in the system. The Habs and Bruins are very close to the leafs imo.
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Old 09-21-2014, 04:07 AM   #177
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I have to admit, Tuna is the prototypical Leafs fan. Fits in this thread like a glove.
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Old 09-21-2014, 06:21 AM   #178
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I think kessel gets a bit of a bad rap. He is an extremely talented player, but he should not be expected to be a leader. He is an introverted geek that just wants to play his videogames. He would best be used in a position where is is the 1B winger to a 1A "a-type" player.
I think Phaneuf is far more of an issue for the Leafs being perma-bad.
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Old 09-21-2014, 08:57 AM   #179
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One person's opinion does not make it a fact.

All the GMs that picked ahead of TO, and every other list out there disagree.

He was picked 8th a couple months ago (no hockey since). Add in at least 10-20 (probably more) superior prospects from the prior couple years and your precious little boy sits somewhere in the 20-50 range.

But keep fapping to that ESPN article if it does it for ya!
Was going to say the same. From what I'm reading on HF, Pronman has a huge hard-on for Nylander. Inflated or not, his opinion is fair. But it is only one man's opinion.

NHL.com's writers, for instance, rank Nylander 15th in their top-60: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=729391

No other Leaf prospect made the list.

Johnathan Willis of Bleacher report ranks Nylander 20th: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...4-draft/page/1

again, no other Leaf prospect made the list.

Last Word On sports has Nylander 21st: http://lastwordonsports.com/2014/08/...nhl-prospects/

But good news, BigTuna! They rank Finn 51st!


Seems obvious that Pronman's opinion is a significant outlier. Most everyone else seems to put Nylander in the 15-20 range. But hey, that still ain't bad.


(as an aside, check out who TSN Ranked as its top affiliated prospect in 2012. Craig Button is no good.)
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Old 09-21-2014, 09:33 AM   #180
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We don't really need a Leafs fan coming into a thread dedicated to the Leafs saying the Flames suck. That's why people aren't happy with your comments.

- we know the Flames will not be very good this season
- there are already plenty of threads discussing the Flames on here
- this thread is about the Leafs, not the Flames

So, to get back on topic, the Leafs are no good.
Personally, I think that we are talking about different things here. The Leafs and Oilers are No Good.

The Flames aren't going to be good.

When a team is No Good, they are unwell institutionally. They are rotting, with few if any positives. They have players in leadership roles like Dion Phaneuf, and prominent players like Phil Kessel, and even better, they will for many years into the future. They have coaches like Randy Carlyle and his new assistants.

I acknowledge that the Flames aren't likely to achieve any real measure of success this year (or, that the parameters re: success aren't going to be 'Playoffs'). Anyone can see that. I certainly don't think the Flames are No Good, though.
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