Reto Berra vs. Karri Ramo

[Itse]

When people get nervous, they often start making mistakes even in situations where they know better. I think that's Berra a lot of the time. He gets nervous, and his routines are not solid enough that they would do the work for him even when he gets nervous.

It's an issue that could be totally gone with age and experience, or not. Takes some dedication to practising in any case.

[ricoFlame]

There is no question who is the better goalie right now. Quite frankly, Berra has such huge flaws in his game, he's got a long way to go to reach his ceiling...he's currently playing at a level of professional hockey in which he's not good enough to play at...he need seasoning, and a lot of it. Say what you want about his potential, but the incredibly weak goals he let in against Edmonton and Chicago cost the team two games, simple as that.

He's got talent, but he's not ready to be here, and you can tell he's gotten where he is by relying on his size (who can blame him!), really needs to work on composure and positioning when things get crazy.

[Bourque's Twin]

Ramo has a lot more experience than Berra, and that is why he's a more polished goalie.
However, Berra's skill set is better than Ramo's. He's quicker and more athletic.

This season is a write-off in terms of playoffs so give both guys a bunch of starts and see what happens. Long-term, I think Berra has the potential to be an effective #1 in this league.

[vilzeh]

I don't think Berra will ever be a #1 goalie in this league, neither will Rämö, when this team decides to take the next step, there's no room for Rämö & Berra in this team.

(With their current play, not showing anything special)

[Erick Estrada]

With these two guys I feel you just have to take it a game at a time and Ramo right now should be the guy.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

I don't think Berra will ever be a #1 goalie in this league, neither will Rämö, when this team decides to take the next step, there's no room for Rämö & Berra in this team.

(With their current play, not showing anything special)

You're probably right, though I think there is a chance Ramp develops into a #1 guy, maybe not an elite goalie, but with a average NHL defence in front of him I think he would/could be fairly solid on a consistent basis.

Like many others though, I have most of my future goaltending hopes for this team tied up in Mr. Jon Gillies. Now that guy, he might be an elite NHL tender one day IMO.

[strombad]

My favourite part about this is that Wastedyouth decided to not only make a final judgement on the talent of both goalies after 10 games, but also that Berra was worth condemning after one solid game by Ramo (despite the fact hat when Berra came in, he looked a HELL of a lot more solid than either Ramo or Joey Mac).

Let that freak flag fly brother, but it doesn't make you right.

You've basically just attempted to prove Pizza is healthier than a Cheesburger because it has tomato sauce on it.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by strombad

My favourite part about this is that Wastedyouth decided to not only make a final judgement on the talent of both goalies after 10 games, but also that Berra was worth condemning after one solid game by Ramo (despite the fact hat when Berra came in, he looked a HELL of a lot more solid than either Ramo or Joey Mac).

Let that freak flag fly brother, but it doesn't make you right.

You've basically just attempted to prove Pizza is healthier than a Cheesburger because it has tomato sauce on it.

I made my points and I stick by them.

But by all means, continue to contribute nothing to the discussion but mindless drivel.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

There is no question who is the better goalie right now.

I'd say there is, considering the public opinion seems to sway back and forth between basicly after every game

While Rämö looks more experienced and ready, the results they are getting are essentially the same. That to me is a strong indication that Berra has significantly more potential; he is getting the same results as Rämö while being further away from his ceiling.

[Enoch Root]

Comparing the goalies purely on stats is going to be difficult at best.

However, when comparing Ramo vs Berra, at least the stats are both compiled with the same team in front of them, so they are about as useful as you're going to get.

And it is difficult to argue with the difference in ES SP.

However, the simple fact of the matter is that we are talking about a total of 10 games each. Simply not enough to draw any conclusions.

Both goalies are still developing - play them both and see how they evolve. If we get one solid NHL goalie out of it, that would be a huge win for the rebuild.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I made my points and I stick by them.

But by all means, continue to contribute nothing to the discussion but mindless drivel.

"I know that I'm intelligent, because I know that I know nothing."

Continue on your quest to prove that you've somehow figured out the true quality of each goaltender despite their similar stats, their varied playing styles, and the incredibly small sample size.

Both have their faults and both have redeeming qualities, but I'm afraid it takes a man more versed in mindless drivel than I to pretend he knows who is better than the other after what we've seen.

[Henry Fool]

We can all avoid a lot of mindless drivel if we focus on hockey rather than the posters.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

However, the simple fact of the matter is that we are talking about a total of 10 games each. Simply not enough to draw any conclusions.

Both goalies are still developing - play them both and see how they evolve. If we get one solid NHL goalie out of it, that would be a huge win for the rebuild.

I agree with the small sample size, but I hate the philosophy of playing the two goalies and seeing how they evolve. Goaltenders are different from other positional players. Backup goalies are practically worthless in a trade. Average #1 goalies have little trade value. Unproven #1 goalies with top 15-top 20 upside have little trade value.

The reason you have management and scouts watching games is to know the team and identify things such as guys who can be core players and positions that needs upgrades. It's fine keeping Berra around and see how he evolves because he's cheap and under team control for another year. But Ramo? You can talk about sample size, but management's job is to figure out as soon as possible whether Ramo can be and will be capable of filling that #1 goaltender position. The worst thing for a rebuilding team is to spend years waiting for their potential #1 goalie to develop into one, passing up on opportunities to acquire a true #1 goalie, and setting back the rebuild for years.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FAN

I agree with the small sample size, but I hate the philosophy of playing the two goalies and seeing how they evolve. Goaltenders are different from other positional players. Backup goalies are practically worthless in a trade. Average #1 goalies have little trade value. Unproven #1 goalies with top 15-top 20 upside have little trade value.

The reason you have management and scouts watching games is to know the team and identify things such as guys who can be core players and positions that needs upgrades. It's fine keeping Berra around and see how he evolves because he's cheap and under team control for another year. But Ramo? You can talk about sample size, but management's job is to figure out as soon as possible whether Ramo can be and will be capable of filling that #1 goaltender position. The worst thing for a rebuilding team is to spend years waiting for their potential #1 goalie to develop into one, passing up on opportunities to acquire a true #1 goalie, and setting back the rebuild for years.

Not sure what your problem with Ramo is, but he will require a similar amount of time to assess as Berra will.

Is your argument that, because he makes $2.7m, he shouldn't get as much time?

That is a ridiculous argument. The Flames have several goalie prospects in various levels of development. It will take time to play out. None of the salaries are such that they materially change that.

At the same time, the organization is also free to evaluate whether or not to acquire another goalie.

Your arguments, and desire to treat Ramo differently, make no sense.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by FAN

The worst thing for a rebuilding team is to spend years waiting for their potential #1 goalie to develop into one, passing up on opportunities to acquire a true #1 goalie, and setting back the rebuild for years.

I fail to see how the Flames are passing on opportunities in any way right now.

Also; "true #1" is often code for "franchise" when it comes to goaltenders and centers.

Looking at the recent championship goaltenders, good goaltending will do, great is not needed. Both Berra and Rämö could be good, although Rämö I agree is a bit of a stretch.

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by Itse

I fail to see how the Flames are passing on opportunities in any way right now.

Also; "true #1" is often code for "franchise" when it comes to goaltenders and centers.

Looking at the recent championship goaltenders, good goaltending will do, great is not needed. Both Berra and Rämö could be good, although Rämö I agree is a bit of a stretch.

Seeing these games, I'd say Berra is bit of a stretch also, yeye, 10 games in, but I don't see his 'higher ceiling', rebound control is good, nothing else is.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

Seeing these games, I'd say Berra is bit of a stretch also, yeye, 10 games in, but I don't see his 'higher ceiling', rebound control is good, nothing else is.

Leg speed and strength are excellent. Gets back up quickly. He has all the tools, he just over-commits. And that can be coached. He needs to watch long videos of Pekka Rinne. Once he learns that the NHL is more about positioning and remaining square to the puck (as opposed to more challenging the shooter in Europe), he could be very good.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Leg speed and strength are excellent. Gets back up quickly. He has all the tools, he just over-commits. And that can be coached. He needs to watch long videos of Pekka Rinne. Once he learns that the NHL is more about positioning and remaining square to the puck (as opposed to more challenging the shooter in Europe), he could be very good.

Agreed, I think Berra has a higher potential, if he can work out the kinks and eliminate his "shatting-of-the-bed" 3rd periods, he could maybe turn into a decent #1 someday, but he has a long way to go...

[Stanley]

I do think Ramo has the tools to be a decent NHL goalie, but he just seems so irratic and inconsistent. One game he looks pretty solid, the next game he can look aweful.

And is it just me or does our D typically play better and allow less shots when Ramo is in net? It seems like when Berra is in, we're letting 28+ shots against on a nightly basis...

[vilzeh]

I kinda agree on the Rinne point though, but that being said; Rinne is far more athletic (or was when he broke in to NHL, he was jumping all over the place still stopping the pucks apart from Berras all over the place not stopping the pucks)