[OOT] Melee between Toronto and Buffalo

[Northendzone]

i thought the whole thing was a fracas, until clarkson came off the bench - then it became a melee - but at least it did not move into a donnybrook.......

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

How is this lopsided or backwards? There is fighting in hockey, Kessel obviously instigated, Scott responded and Kessel didn't like the response.
The Leafs come off looking disgusting in this:
Kessel instigates with a goon
Kessel slashes Scott twice
Two Leafs jump Scott
Clarkson leaves bench to engage Scott
Bernier engages Miller (for what reason, exactly?)
Multiple members of the Leafs bench taunts Scott as he's being restrained.
Kessel jabs Scott and goes in for the last word

Lopsided and backwards? Please. The Leafs are the offenders here. Scott is a goon, and his place in the game is questionable, but he's not some unstoppable monster that could have killed Kessel. What Kessel did was pathetic, and the response of his team was equally pathetic. Kessel has at least 20 pounds on Flynn, and nobody had a problem with the fleecing Kessel gave him.

I'm not justifying the start of the brawl, nor the Buffalo Sabres role in it, but anyone who paints Buffalo in any light comparable to that of Toronto has blinders on. Multiple Leafs performed much worse offences than anything Scott did, but he simply gets crapped on because he's a goon. If Myers dropped the gloves in the same way, I guarantee the reaction to this is completely different.

What game were you watching?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Yes he is. He's twice Phil's size.

Oh, I didn't realise he was over 12 feet tall and over 400 pounds. My bad.

Originally Posted by valo403

What game were you watching?

Same game. Kessel and Scott are obviously chirping, Kessel goes for a little swipe, and Scott just drops the gloves. Pretty clear cut.

[V]

That was some pretty Grade A coaching by Carlyle to put Kessel up against Scott right after the previous fight. I didn't take a clairvoyant to know what was going to happen next.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, if the league suspends Kessel for any extended period of time, all it's saying to the goons of the league is that it's open season on ACTUAL hockey players.

What else was Kessel going to do? Scott is a goof for going after him.

Really?


The only logical response is to take baseball swings with his stick? That is OK, but challenging a guy to drop the gloves is somehow detrimental to the game?

Good grief.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

Same game. Kessel and Scott are obviously chirping, Kessel goes for a little swipe, and Scott just drops the gloves. Pretty clear cut.

That's laughable. You're telling me that Kessel instigated a fight with one of the NHL's top heavyweights?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Really?


The only logical response is to take baseball swings with his stick? That is OK, but challenging a guy to drop the gloves is somehow detrimental to the game?

Good grief.

I actually don't think there's anything wrong with the first swing. It's at his legs, it isn't going to do any serious damage and he's about to get his head caved in if he doesn't do something.

The follow ups from the back go too far, but honestly I'm fine with a guy like Scott getting taken out of the game in any fashion. I like fighting in hockey, but he's a joke.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

Because every team has guys whose job it is to set the tone. Whether that be to be a #### disturber or to be an enforcer each player has their role. We saw last season with the Flames just how small a team can play when the hired gun is not available and how ineffective they can be with out that #### disturber. Scott was there to do his job and send a message.

The rather enormous difference between a pure enforcer like Scott and agitators like Clutterbuck or Torres is that the latter can actually take a regular shift and play the game. I have no problem with players whose primary role is to disrupt and interfere with the forward progress and puck possession of the opposition, but this is almost universally more effective when it occurs in the course of actual play.

Originally Posted by New Era

The question you should be asking is what was Kessel doing out there? Leafs had last change and Kessel was put out there for a reason. Why?

Seriously? I would expect he was out there to make a hockey play. He is, after all a pretty damn good hockey player.

Originally Posted by New Era

Yet teams continue to go out of their way to find them and give them roster spots. What is happening is that teams are now trying to find guys that can intimidate and contribute to some position in some meaningful way.

Wrong. The pure hockey enforcers are becoming an endangered species precisely because of what is happening now where teams are more and more focused on ensuring that every position is filled by players who can make hockey plays.

Originally Posted by New Era

Exactly, so why is Kessel put out there next to him?

For the same reason that these types of players are a dying breed. Carlyle likely realised the opportunity to take advantage of the massive skill mismatch between an actual hockey player like Kessel and a barely skating, mouth-breathing pugilist who is more apt to be victimised for his obvious playing deficiencies than he is to make any perceptible impact to the score.

Originally Posted by New Era

That's the big question, but based on the jawing before the faceoff I would say something was said by Kessel. Scott didn't hesitate and Kessel was ready with lumberjack routine all too quickly].

I have already agreed that Kessel goaded Scott, but there is virtually no way to judge from the video evidence whom between the two players is more culpable. One cannot simply call one or the other the instigator in this, although I will maintain that were Scott not on the ice in the first place, this incident does not happen.

Originally Posted by New Era

Seems that you're trying to say that you were on the ice to make the opposite claim. The only thing we can go on is the video and the results. It appears from the video that Kessel enjoyed poking, and slashing, the bear so to speak. We already concluded the tough guys and #### disturbers send a message, well so do the actions of the other players out there. You're ignoring the actions of Kessel.

I am not ignoring the actions of Kessel whom I have already agreed shares culpability. What I have been attempting to do is to better emphasise the balance by way of showing that players like Scott simply have no useful function in today's game, and their continued (but diminishing) presence only tends to result in these sorts of events that are not related, or tangential to the action during play.

Originally Posted by New Era

You're not asking the right question again. Toronto had last change. Why was Kessel out there?

Again, I suspect it was to MAKE A HOCKEY PLAY.

Originally Posted by New Era

*contrived speculation*

I'm not really that interested in guessing about Carlyle's motives, and you may very well be right: It could very well be that Carlyle was attempting to illicit a reactionary response. We can't know for certain anything beyond this: between Kessel and Scott there is only one hockey player, and there is a good bet that his presence on the ice is expected to result in some sort of hockey play. Since the other participant cannot play the game, then I really think that despite the Leaf's possession of last change, the onus is on the other coach to provide some explanation for his presence on the ice. I will repeat: It was NOT to play hockey.

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't disagree with you on the goon thing. They should be gone from the game. But the reason they still exist is so little punks that act like Kessel have to pay for their actions.at some point. I don't agree with it, but it is part of the game and part of the code the players follow...

This simply isn't good enough. If you don't agree with making concessions for the inclusion of players that cannot play hockey, then there should be no excuse here. Throwing your hands up and chalking it up to "part of the game" is lazy and defeatist.

Code be damned. There are MANY things that were once part of the game and have become obsolete, and it is high time that the enforcer was finally eliminated along with the rest of these dinosaurs. With how few of them there are left in the NHL; with the number of teams that no longer have one on their roster; with the way the game has evolved so far beyond their purpose, I can't think of a single good reason to continue with the charade. "Tradition" is only effective insofar is it reflects something meaningful in the current realia, and goon-fighting in today's NHL fails to conform. It has become arbitrary and it bears almost no resemblance to its place in so-called "old time hockey".

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by strombad

Same game. Kessel and Scott are obviously chirping, Kessel goes for a little swipe, and Scott just drops the gloves. Pretty clear cut.

According to the post game, Scott told Kessel he was going after him at puck drop. Kessel may be a little bitch for his attempts to carve Scott up with his stick, but he did not instigate that.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by valo403

That's laughable. You're telling me that Kessel instigated a fight with one of the NHL's top heavyweights? Dude, you sound stupid. Just stop.

And you're suggesting that by chirping and swiping a goon, Kessel had absolutely zero intention of goading him into action.

It sounds like Kessel is the only stupid one here, but I'd suggest you refrain from calling people stupid as a crutch instead of expressing yourself properly.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

According to the post game, Scott told Kessel he was going after him at puck drop. Kessel may be a little bitch for his attempts to carve Scott up with his stick, but he did not instigate that.

I don't so much mean Kessel obviously said "hey let's fight!" but rather, he was chirping at a known goon, took a swipe, and then expected what to happen?
I'm not saying Scott is blameless, I'm simply suggesting that those who believe Kessel is blameless and was running for his life aren't really being honest concerning the situation. So in this sense, I agree with you based on the idea that Kessel obviously didn't say "let's fight", but he HAD to know what was going to happen, as did Carlyle if we're to believe Scott had made it very clear what his intentions were beforehand.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by valo403

...he follow ups from the back go too far, but honestly I'm fine with a guy like Scott getting taken out of the game in any fashion. I like fighting in hockey, but he's a joke.

This is more in line with my take on things. The modern-day hockey fight is little more than a staged contest between combatants who possess an isolated skill that has nothing whatsoever to do with actual hockey play. It's pointless and it's boring. If fighting were eliminated, these sorts of players would disappear along with it, but I am not convinced that all players would stop fighting. In actual fact, this might even help to restore some of what makes "real" hockey fights so good (the rare ones that occur between two players for the purpose of settling scores, or in the heat of the moment).

[Quincy Egg]

Originally Posted by valo403

What game were you watching?

Wrong. You either didn't watch the game or weren't paying close enough attention. Kessel was slashing at Scott all game.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

And you're suggesting that by chirping and swiping a goon, Kessel had absolutely zero intention of goading him into action.

It sounds like Kessel is the only stupid one here, but I'd suggest you refrain from calling people stupid as a crutch instead of expressing yourself properly.



I don't so much mean Kessel obviously said "hey let's fight!" but rather, he was chirping at a known goon, took a swipe, and then expected what to happen?
I'm not saying Scott is blameless, I'm simply suggesting that those who believe Kessel is blameless and was running for his life aren't really being honest concerning the situation. So in this sense, I agree with you based on the idea that Kessel obviously didn't say "let's fight", but he HAD to know what was going to happen, as did Carlyle if we're to believe Scott had made it very clear what his intentions were beforehand.

Kessel didn't instigate a fight. All reports are that Scott told him he was going to jump him, which, shockingly, drew a response.

I don't even like Kessel, and I hate the Leafs, but your line of thinking bears no resemblance to what actually happened.

[Robbob]

Part of this is on the coaching staff putting Scott on right after their guy got beat down. I think a good example on how to treat a situation would be what happened between the Flames and Ottawa. Stajan, a non fighter, gets tuned up a bit. When that guy comes back McGrattan deals with it. End of story.

As screwed up as it is, there is a code and you do not do what Scott did. I don't Blame Kessel for the first slash, but once half the leafs engage Scott it really isn't necessary.

[valo403]

Here's an intelligent person and former player discussing what happened:

This all gets going after Jamie Devane (a Leaf) knocks out Corey Tropp (a Sabre). The Sabres send John Scott over the boards, who promptly tells Phil Kessel he’s coming after him off the faceoff, then does. This is mind-blowing. My question for Scott is, what’s the plan here? Let’s say somehow the ogre catches the jackrabbit, was he just going to punch his face a bunch of times? I’m seeing it widely assumed that was the plan, and it probably was, but I just can’t believe it made sense in John Scott’s head, like, “this is going to go over swell with the league and Leafs.”

It’s so rare for it to happen (a heavy legitimately trying to fight a small scorer) that putting your star out against the other team’s meatbags is generally a great way to diffuse high tensions, as if to say “we’re not going to engage in your idiocy, we’re trying to play hockey.” Which is to say, I disagree with this take on Pension Plan Puppets this morning, which says that Carlyle made a mistake by putting Kessel out in that situation in the first place.

I’m hearing talk that people think Phil Kessel should be suspended for his back-of-the-leg chop on John Scott. The chop was comically blatant (as was the second), but based on situation and location (back of leg), I don’t think that was a suspendible play. That literally might be the safest option a guy like Kessel has to defend himself. I’d be surprised if an ex-player like Shanahan bothers with it, but if he does, I bet he just gives him pre-season games. (Hell, Kessel’s chops on that Flyers’ d-man last week were probably worse.)

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...aw/#more-86077

But yeah, Kessel was out there looking for a fight

[strombad]

Originally Posted by valo403

Kessel didn't instigate a fight. All reports are that Scott told him he was going to jump him, which, shockingly, drew a response.

I don't even like Kessel, and I hate the Leafs, but your line of thinking bears no resemblance to what actually happened.

Which reports? The ones at ice level with bias? Or the ones who watched the game and saw Kessel being a pest?

I don't have a "line of thinking", I am going by what ACTUALLY visually happened. Perhaps if you had watched more than a TSN clip and read a couple comments, we could discuss this further.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Wrong. You either didn't watch the game or weren't paying close enough attention. Kessel was slashing at Scott all game.

I find it hard to believe John Scott would be on the ice for any considerable amount of time while Kessel was on the ice.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

Which reports? The ones at ice level with bias? Or the ones who watched the game and saw Kessel being a pest?

I don't have a "line of thinking", I am going by what ACTUALLY visually happened. Perhaps if you had watched more than a TSN clip and read a couple comments, we could discuss this further.

What more am I supposed to watch? Should I watch some Flames highlights or something? I watched the incident in its entirety. All of the replays, all of the angles. Do you have a secret feed or something?

[Quincy Egg]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I find it hard to believe John Scott would be on the ice for any considerable amount of time while Kessel was on the ice.

You don't need to be on the ice for a considerable amount of time to take swipes at a guy.

[troutman]

Kessel should miss the first regular season game. Players can't swing their sticks like that for any reason.