[Signing] Blues sign Bouwmeester to 5yr extension ($5.4 mil AAV)

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Wolven

I believe he has elite speed, skill and ability but he doesn't have an elite personality. He duitfully did what his coach wanted from him even though it made him look like a worse player than he actually is.

To you that means he is nowhere near Elite status. To me it means he is "Elite Lite".

I think it's pointless to compartmentalize and evaluate a player's skills alone. The most talented guy doesn't mean he's the best hockey player. If you were to compartmentalize and evaluate Bouwmeester based on his package of size, skill, skating ability, hockey sense, and ability to play defense, there are virtually no defensemen in the NHL who can match Bouwmeester's complete package. But the fact that Bouwmeester isn't one of the league's top defenseman is very telling. He's not physical, he doesn't ever raise his intensity in key games, he has a weak point shot, isn't a PP QB, and he's not a dynamic puck rushing defenseman despite his skating ability. Bouwmeester is completely reliant on his ability to jump into the play and act as a 4th forward which limit his offensive potential. Those pre-Tallon Panthers teams that were simply overrated and Bouwmeester was one of them.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by FAN

I think it's pointless to compartmentalize and evaluate a player's skills alone. The most talented guy doesn't mean he's the best hockey player. If you were to compartmentalize and evaluate Bouwmeester based on his package of size, skill, skating ability, hockey sense, and ability to play defense, there are virtually no defensemen in the NHL who can match Bouwmeester's complete package. But the fact that Bouwmeester isn't one of the league's top defenseman is very telling. He's not physical, he doesn't ever raise his intensity in key games, he has a weak point shot, isn't a PP QB, and he's not a dynamic puck rushing defenseman despite his skating ability. Bouwmeester is completely reliant on his ability to jump into the play and act as a 4th forward which limit his offensive potential. Those pre-Tallon Panthers teams that were simply overrated and Bouwmeester was one of them.

And I think it is pointless to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Bouwmeester may not have been a perfect player for the Flames but I stand by my statement that it was painfully obvious that he was being pigeonholed into a "defense only" position where a number of his particular strengths were outright wasted.

He will look like a significantly better Dman for the Blues. Not because he is "making less money" but because I believe he will thrive a lot more under a coach that knows how to use him and can adjust his coaching to maximize a player's abilities.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Nice comparisons between the rosters of today's Blues and the Flames when Bouwmeester joined the team. I can see the similarities.

However, my entire post was about the obvious impact to Bouwmeester's game that comes from the coach he is playing under. Regardless of the other names on the roster when Bouwmeester was a Flame, Sutter was the coach up until this last season when Hartley took over. When Bouwmeester was deployed under Hartley he was a totally different player. He was still good defensively but he was able to impact the game a lot more by using his speed to generate offense.

Even if the two rosters were identical between the 2009 Flames and the 2014 Blues, the difference that you glossed over is that they have Hitchcock as a coach and we had B.Sutter.



I believe he has elite speed, skill and ability but he doesn't have an elite personality. He duitfully did what his coach wanted from him even though it made him look like a worse player than he actually is.

To you that means he is nowhere near Elite status. To me it means he is "Elite Lite".

Sutter successfully coached defense first, skating non-physical d-men Odouya and Paul Martin while in NJ. They were both +21 in 2008-09 and +27 and +20 in 2007-08. They kicked in around 30 pts a year (32, 26, 33, 29).

So maybe it was not that Sutter was not able to provide a coaching environment that non-physical , good skating d-men could exceed.

Odouya who is at best is Chicago's #3/4 was a Better NHL defenseman under Brent Sutter than Bouwmeester.

Odouya --- 3.38 M for 3 years staring last year.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Sutter successfully coached defense first, skating non-physical d-men Odouya and Paul Martin while in NJ. They were both +21 in 2008-09 and +27 and +20 in 2007-08. They kicked in around 30 pts a year (32, 26, 33, 29).

So maybe it was not that Sutter was not able to provide a coaching environment that non-physical , good skating d-men could exceed.

Odouya who is at best is Chicago's #3/4 was a Better NHL defenseman under Brent Sutter than Bouwmeester.

Odouya --- 3.38 M for 3 years staring last year.

So you are just assuming Oduya and Bouw played the same minutes?

Remember Bouw's first season here? He played with Gio or Sarich on the 2nd pair at the start of the year. Regehr and Phanuef were the top shutdown pair. Bouw jumped out to a +14 rating 2 months into the season. Once Sutter started relying on Bouw for tougher minutes he did not keep his +- rating but was able to absorb the tough minutes and still play nearly 30 minutes a game.

Touting out +- without taking into account what type of minutes were played makes that an irrelevant stat in my opinion.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Sutter successfully coached defense first, skating non-physical d-men Odouya and Paul Martin while in NJ. They were both +21 in 2008-09 and +27 and +20 in 2007-08. They kicked in around 30 pts a year (32, 26, 33, 29).

So maybe it was not that Sutter was not able to provide a coaching environment that non-physical , good skating d-men could exceed.

Odouya who is at best is Chicago's #3/4 was a Better NHL defenseman under Brent Sutter than Bouwmeester.

Odouya --- 3.38 M for 3 years staring last year.

So Odouya making 3.38M helps prove that Bouwmeester wasn't stifled by Sutter's coaching, negates Bouwmeester's excellent season under Hartley and proves that he is overpaid and will fail under Hitchcock with the Blues?

I guess you might have a point if Bouwmeester hadn't put up more points in the shortened 2013 season than Odouya put up in any of the last 3 years.

Also, Martin is making $5M and Bouwmeester is putting up equivalent points while playing a bigger role on a worse team.

Its a lot of random stats and comparisons that do not really add up to anything.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Wolven

So Odouya making 3.38M helps prove that Bouwmeester wasn't stifled by Sutter's coaching, negates Bouwmeester's excellent season under Hartley and proves that he is overpaid and will fail under Hitchcock with the Blues?

I guess you might have a point if Bouwmeester hadn't put up more points in the shortened 2013 season than Odouya put up in any of the last 3 years.

Also, Martin is making $5M and Bouwmeester is putting up equivalent points while playing a bigger role on a worse team.

Its a lot of random stats and comparisons that do not really add up to anything.

No but Odouya and Martin playing a similar game as Bouwmeester were more successful under Sutter than Bouwmeester. The Bouwmeester supporters (relatives/agents?) are trying to pin Bouwmeester's unmigitated failure as a Flame on the coaching of Brent Sutter. Brent Sutter was one of the best coaches in the league before he got a team with Bouwmeester on it.

Bouwmeester's great season?????? 15 pts in 33 games around 40 pts season.... before he goes into quiet mode if the Flames were close to the playoffs. -11 in 33 games -24 in 82 games.

we were just had so little expectations of Bouwmeester that he didn't totally suck for a month or two he was considered great.

Honest to goodness Bouwmeester was leading the Flames to their worst season in the history of the Franchise and you can somehow say that Hartley was a better coach than Brent Sutter??? and Bouwmeester was having a great season when he was traded.

I doubt that Hartley was told his goal was to make Bouwmeester tradeable no matter how bad the team goes.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

No but Odouya and Martin playing a similar game as Bouwmeester were more successful under Sutter than Bouwmeester. The Bouwmeester supporters (relatives/agents?) are trying to pin Bouwmeester's unmigitated failure as a Flame on the coaching of Brent Sutter. Brent Sutter was one of the best coaches in the league before he got a team with Bouwmeester on it.

Bouwmeester's great season?????? 15 pts in 33 games around 40 pts season.... before he goes into quiet mode if the Flames were close to the playoffs. -11 in 33 games -24 in 82 games.

we were just had so little expectations of Bouwmeester that he didn't totally suck for a month or two he was considered great.

Honest to goodness Bouwmeester was leading the Flames to their worst season in the history of the Franchise and you can somehow say that Hartley was a better coach than Brent Sutter??? and Bouwmeester was having a great season when he was traded.

I doubt that Hartley was told his goal was to make Bouwmeester tradeable no matter how bad the team goes.

Again, you are missing the point.

I liked Sutter as a coach, I thought the Flames were better off sticking to him for a longer term instead of continuing the revolve the coaching spot. I thought Sutter was good at coaching the team and had an excellent defensive style. In hindsight, I think Sutter's failing as a coach would be to try to adjust "the plan" to work with the playe's instead of trying to brute force the players to fit his plan.

It was frustrating watching Bouwmeester with an obvious leash keeping him from joining in on the rush. Having Bouwmeester stand at the point and wait for pucks to come to him to shoot in as if he is a second Phaneuf just didn't work. What's more, the few times Bouwmeester burst into the offensive zone to join the rush his teammates didn't know what to do with him.

Bouwmeester didn't seem to be the only one. Stajan also seemed to be completely out to lunch under Sutter but then became one of the team's best forwards under Hartley.

I'm not sold on Hartley as a head coach yet, especially with how dismal last season went, but I do appreciate that he had to deal with a season where Backlund missed a quarter of the season and Kipper was injured for a large portion of it (missed half the games?). Regardless of the team's performance though, he definitely seemed to get more out of individual players that did not find any kind of success under Sutter.

For this thread though, the question is no longer about Sutter vs. Hartley. It is about how Bouwmeester will fair under Hitchcock. I think he will make us wish that he was still with the Flames, or that we had better coaching over the last 5 years....

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by FAN

Huh? So you agree that Bouwmeester isn't an elite defenseman?

Yes, I do. I think he's an above average D-Man, but he isn't elite like Weber/Keith/Seabrook/Suter/Karlsson/Chara/etc.

Yes I think Bouwmeester was overpaid here, but I don't hold it against him because he couldn't jump to the upper echelon of defensemen. Some guys are just not capable and it's not a knock on them. $5.4 for Bouwmeester is better than what we're paying Wideman

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

Yes, I do. I think he's an above average D-Man, but he isn't elite like Weber/Keith/Seabrook/Suter/Karlsson/Chara/etc.

Yes I think Bouwmeester was overpaid here, but I don't hold it against him because he couldn't jump to the upper echelon of defensemen. Some guys are just not capable and it's not a knock on them. $5.4 for Bouwmeester is better than what we're paying Wideman

We paid Bouw to care and to set a tone. On this team, he'd be in that role. He's awful at it. St Louis has seven other guys who set the tone of that team.

Wideman is more useful to the team offensively and looks like he cares.

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

We paid Bouw to care and to set a tone. On this team, he'd be in that role. He's awful at it. St Louis has seven other guys who set the tone of that team.

Wideman is more useful to the team offensively and looks like he cares.

And we paid the wrong guy.

Was Bouwmeester ever obligated to be "a number 1, elite defenseman" because we overpaid him? Do you think the negotiation went "Well, if you can be the go to guy, which you never have been yet in your career, you can have $6.68!"

Hype got him that kind of money, he was always a $4.5-$5 million defenseman

And just because he's a quiet and awkward dude it doesn't mean he doesn't care. It's his personality.

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bouwmeester's great season?????? 15 pts in 33 games around 40 pts season....

But was on pace for about 18 goals... a career high

[FAN]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

And we paid the wrong guy.

Was Bouwmeester ever obligated to be "a number 1, elite defenseman" because we overpaid him? Do you think the negotiation went "Well, if you can be the go to guy, which you never have been yet in your career, you can have $6.68!"

Hype got him that kind of money, he was always a $4.5-$5 million defenseman

Hype or not, I bet Bouwmeester's agent told Darryl that Bouwmeester is a number 1 elite defenseman and for Darryl he thought he was getting a defenseman who is going to be a 10+ goal 40+ point guy.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

But was on pace for about 18 goals... a career high

That's the thing about shortened seasons, the on pace numbers are skewed. Bouwmeester's play was trailing off and was back to his normal suck self after a solid month of play. A short season doesn't allow the cold streaks to be accounted for, or the hot streaks mean too much.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by FAN

Hype or not, I bet Bouwmeester's agent told Darryl that Bouwmeester is a number 1 elite defenseman and for Darryl he thought he was getting a defenseman who is going to be a 10+ goal 40+ point guy.

Do you even remember the situation that led to Bouwmeester joining the Flames? All Bouwmeester's agent had to do is say "free agent frenzy starts next week and we are fine hearing everyone's bids for Jay's services".

I highly doubt that if Bouwmeester hit the free agent market that he would have made any less money from any other team in the NHL. How often does a top pairing Dman in his 20s go to free agency? Twice in the last 10 years?

The reality is that we didn't "overpay" Bouwmeester to be an elite player or to be the go-to guy on the team. We paid him for his services to skip going to free agency and likely paid him as much or maybe even less than what he was going to get anyway.

Also, we set the bar for how much he should make by giving Phaneuf his own ridiculous contract. There wasn't much chance that Bouwmeester was going to come out of his first UFA contract and sign for less than Phaneuf's RFA contract.

After that point, what we got out of Bouwmeester appears to be dictated by what we asked of him and how we built the team around him. In hindsight, nothing good came out of that situation as we essentially lost every trade following Bouwmeester's signing and then expected him to transform into some kind of Phaneuf / Regehr hybrid and fill both of their shoes at the same time while playing with Butler.

Recipe for success............ right?

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Do you even remember the situation that led to Bouwmeester joining the Flames? All Bouwmeester's agent had to do is say "free agent frenzy starts next week and we are fine hearing everyone's bids for Jay's services".

I highly doubt that if Bouwmeester hit the free agent market that he would have made any less money from any other team in the NHL. How often does a top pairing Dman in his 20s go to free agency? Twice in the last 10 years?

The reality is that we didn't "overpay" Bouwmeester to be an elite player or to be the go-to guy on the team. We paid him for his services to skip going to free agency and likely paid him as much or maybe even less than what he was going to get anyway.

Also, we set the bar for how much he should make by giving Phaneuf his own ridiculous contract. There wasn't much chance that Bouwmeester was going to come out of his first UFA contract and sign for less than Phaneuf's RFA contract.

After that point, what we got out of Bouwmeester appears to be dictated by what we asked of him and how we built the team around him. In hindsight, nothing good came out of that situation as we essentially lost every trade following Bouwmeester's signing and then expected him to transform into some kind of Phaneuf / Regehr hybrid and fill both of their shoes at the same time while playing with Butler.

Recipe for success............ right?

Fully agree with what you are saying on why Bouw got his money on his contract from Calgary. Rumours at the time where Toronto and Vancouver were going to offer $7 million + for his services. Even D Sutter said when we made the trade for his rights, that it was the only chance the flames had at trying to convince him to come to Calgary for less money. Yeah now $6.6 looks like a big overpayment, but at the time he probably took $500,000 less a year by signing with Calgary.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Do you even remember the situation that led to Bouwmeester joining the Flames? All Bouwmeester's agent had to do is say "free agent frenzy starts next week and we are fine hearing everyone's bids for Jay's services".

I highly doubt that if Bouwmeester hit the free agent market that he would have made any less money from any other team in the NHL. How often does a top pairing Dman in his 20s go to free agency? Twice in the last 10 years?

The reality is that we didn't "overpay" Bouwmeester to be an elite player or to be the go-to guy on the team. We paid him for his services to skip going to free agency and likely paid him as much or maybe even less than what he was going to get anyway.

Also, we set the bar for how much he should make by giving Phaneuf his own ridiculous contract. There wasn't much chance that Bouwmeester was going to come out of his first UFA contract and sign for less than Phaneuf's RFA contract.

After that point, what we got out of Bouwmeester appears to be dictated by what we asked of him and how we built the team around him. In hindsight, nothing good came out of that situation as we essentially lost every trade following Bouwmeester's signing and then expected him to transform into some kind of Phaneuf / Regehr hybrid and fill both of their shoes at the same time while playing with Butler.

Recipe for success............ right?

I fully remember and to me it was not only a fair contract at the time but I was surprised and how little it took to sign him. At the time it looked like a huge coup for Darryl. Not that anyone seriously thought the team could afford to have both Bouwmeester and Phaneuf on the team but the believe was that you could trade one of them for a huge ransom. The fact was that Bouwmeester was considered a franchise defenseman or close to it and most people thought he could command upwards of $7M a year.

That's why I'm not taking the excuse that somehow the contract the Flames game him and the expectations didn't matter and shouldn't be used to evaluate Bouwmeester. doctajones was suggesting that Bouwmeester was somehow never a #1 guy when he clearly was considered a franchise defenseman or close to it.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by FAN

I fully remember and to me it was not only a fair contract at the time but I was surprised and how little it took to sign him. At the time it looked like a huge coup for Darryl. Not that anyone seriously thought the team could afford to have both Bouwmeester and Phaneuf on the team but the believe was that you could trade one of them for a huge ransom. The fact was that Bouwmeester was considered a franchise defenseman or close to it and most people thought he could command upwards of $7M a year.

That's why I'm not taking the excuse that somehow the contract the Flames game him and the expectations didn't matter and shouldn't be used to evaluate Bouwmeester. doctajones was suggesting that Bouwmeester was somehow never a #1 guy when he clearly was considered a franchise defenseman or close to it.

Right, and I guess my point is that *we all* need to take a huge step back and look at the big picture.

It isn't just Bouwmeester's poor point production one should look at, or his +/-. Don't try to cherry pick his contract value without considering the situation that got him that contract. Or how B.Sutter was coaching and what role Bouwmeester was told he needed to perform. And then how Bouwmeester's game changed under a different head coach. And don't leave out who is linemates were and how the team changed since Bouwmeester was signed.

All of those things factor together into a perfect storm of disappointment.

Now Bouwmeester is a Blue and Flames fans are left to lick their wounds and move on. The haters are hoping that he will jinx the Blues and continue his trend of poor play that we saw from 09-11. The supporters will wish him luck and hope that in a new environment that he will show what he was always capable of doing and what we always hoped to see him do as a Flame.

I like the "Lessons Learned" approach and trying to determine the root cause of the problem. If the problem was B.Sutter's coaching, then hooray, he is gone. If the problem was Bouwmeester, hooray, he is gone too. If the problem is that there is still some aspect of the Flames organization that can take a franchise Dman and make him look like an overpaid bum, then I would love to find out what that is and kill it with fire.