What could Calgary do to move up in the draft rankings to acquire Nathan MacKinnon?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Is that Brodin's fault that Sven is injury prone and was likely going to be sent down anyway as Hartley obviously didn't think he was ready? The fact that Brodin has established himself faster than Sven to me means right now he's a better player and younger. I don't want to beat down Sven here but the fact is that Hartley wasn't even playing him until the end of the season when the team became the Heat. I don't see that changing much next season as long as the games count he's going to roll with veteran player he has confidence in. I see this season as a bit disappointing quite frankly as the kid simply didn't look good until garbage time and even then he wasn't noticeable for stretches. He's likely going to be a Backlund type project that will need a lot of tough love.

Again - I disagree.

I think Sven's transition will be far smoother and he'll make a big impact a lot quicker.

We'll find out. But he's got everything it takes to be a high end player - most importantly unreal instincts.

I rarely take such a strong stand on a prospect - but I'm that high on him.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Brodin is still pretty unproven. He's only played 20 more games then Baertschi. I guess it depends on what your own personal cut off is in terms of games played. They were both taken in the same draft.

Six months ago probably 95% of hockey fans would have picked Baerstchi over Brodin, but now Brodin has surged ahead.

In terms of projection. Well its a hard thing to predict. I think basing career projections on current play is just as fair as anything else. Not sure I would say Sven is easily ahead of the other 92's.

If Oleksiak becomes a 6'7" shutdown D-man that plays 25 minutes a night and chips in a bit of offence, then he is worth then Baertschi if he ends up being a Eberle/Pierre-Marc Bouchard level player.

Indeed projection is always tricky - but I think basing it on current play is quite narrow. I try to view a player in the sense of what their skills are and how I think they will translate to NHL levels of play. I mean really that's the game right - not just looking at what players are doing today - but trying to predict who they will be 3-5 years from now.

As for Brodin - even if we include guys like him who made it through an entire NHL season - I think Sven is still in the top 10.

Good discussion.

[Willi Plett]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

Might've already been mentioned, but with the way the Flames are looking right now, next year's 1st rounder is going to be very valuable.

So here's my proposal:

To CGY:

- Tampa Bay's 3rd overall pick

To TB:

- Calgary's 2014 1st round pick
- Either the Blues or Penguins pick

Why Tampa may consider this trade:

Tampa is fairly deep in prospects. They have Nemestikov, Tanner Richard, Connelly, JT Brown, Sustr, Barberio, Koekkoek, Vasilevski. Pretty decent pool of prospects right there. Certainly healthier than the Flames' current cupboard. They're not starving for prospects.

While taking Calgary's 2014 pick is a bit of a risk because in today's NHL, teams can go from crap to bubble playoff teams (Columbus), I think it could be a very enticing risk to take for Yzerman as it could turn out to be a top 3. Plus, he picks up an extra first rounder in the 18-23 range.

The reason this trade works for Calgary are obvious. The Flames draft a franchise player in the top 3 this year and retain their #6 pick who could also turn out to be a star. As well, the Flames retain either their Pens or Blues pick.

Looking through recent history at what it takes to move up (link here and here) we can assume that to move into the top 3 it will take a top 10 pick (i.e, Flames 2014 pick) and a high second rounder and/or more (I was generous and said either the Pens or Blues pick).

This is a good, fair deal IMO. If it takes our third rounder to get it done, then so it does. It's more than worth it for a Seth Jones, Nathan MacKinnon, or Jonathan Drouin.

I think this is the right idea. A trade with Tampa is much more feasible than with Florida and you still have one of Drouin, Mackinnon and Barkov to pick from.

There was some speculation at the end of the season (sorry I forget what media) that Tampa would be willing to trade down for immediate roster improvement. I actually think a combination of picks (almost certainly including the 6th) and veterans or young prospects might get it done. They also have some cap issues so a Glencross contract or even maybe a Tanguay contract might be attractive. The Flames could even eat some salary in a deal to get it done. Heck you want Cammy at $1M - here you go LOL.

I don't know what it would take but the assets I would try very hard not to part with are Brodie, Baertchi, Gio, and Backlund.

If Tampa wants to ice a better lineup now I think we have some interesting options.

[Tinordi]

Sven reminds me a bit of Hemsky and I don't mean that as a bad thing.

[Miniac]

Originally Posted by Willi Plett

I think this is the right idea. A trade with Tampa is much more feasible than with Florida and you still have one of Drouin, Mackinnon and Barkov to pick from.

There was some speculation at the end of the season (sorry I forget what media) that Tampa would be willing to trade down for immediate roster improvement. I actually think a combination of picks (almost certainly including the 6th) and veterans or young prospects might get it done. They also have some cap issues so a Glencross contract or even maybe a Tanguay contract might be attractive. The Flames could even eat some salary in a deal to get it done. Heck you want Cammy at $1M - here you go LOL.

I don't know what it would take but the assets I would try very hard not to part with are Brodie, Baertchi, Gio, and Backlund.

If Tampa wants to ice a better lineup now I think we have some interesting options.

I agree. I can see something like Blues 1st + Glencross for 3rd overall. I think this trade is fair for both teams.

Therefore, Flames will have 3rd, 6th + Pit (27th-30th) 1st round picks.

[HockeyInTheHimalayas]

What would Calgary do to move up in the draft rankings to acquire Nathan Mackinnon?

I think the question should be, What could Calgary do to move up into the top 3 picks?

Jonathan Drouin at potentially the 3rd overall pick is going to be franchise changer (Of course he may go earlier). Absolutely the most skilled player in the draft, with world class hands. I would even go as far as saying, in terms of pure stickhandling ability his hands are the dirtiest even across the last 3 drafts. Not only did he outscore Mackinnon in the regular season by 30 points, he continues to do so in the playoffs as well. The point differential in the playoffs is also trending towards the gap widening between the two as Mackinnon had a great start to the playoffs, but Drouin tied him and has taken the lead now.

Playoffs:
Jonathan Drouin 16GP 11G 23A 34PTS
Nathan MacKinnon 16GP 10G 21A 31PTS

Regular Season:
Jonathan Drouin 49GP 41G 64A 105PTS
Nathan Mackinnon 44GP 32G 43A 75PTS

After watching Drouin's slick, slick hands at the world juniors, and reading the articles about his teammates and coaches raving about his pure skill and work ethic, it's hard to imagine there is a better player in this draft than him. I really wish the Flames can somehow manage to select Drouin. I understand Mackinnon is a more complete player, but when you can pickup a guaranteed point per game player, and world class offensive player, I would take Drouin in a heartbeat.

I think Sven's transition will be far smoother and he'll make a big impact a lot quicker.

We'll find out. But he's got everything it takes to be a high end player - most importantly unreal instincts.

Also on those points by Jiri about Sven, I would absolutely agree. Sven's hands aren't "unreal", but his offensive instincts are the big thing with him, coupled with above average offensive attributes, and no real down point on the offensive side. I am quite certain he will be a very good offensive player, very soon, and will not take the same amount of time as Backlund to adjust. I think he will pickup next season where he left off this year, on a hot streak.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by HockeyInTheHimalayas

I think the question should be, What could Calgary do to move up into the top 3 picks?

Jonathan Drouin at potentially the 3rd overall pick is going to be franchise changer (Of course he may go earlier). Absolutely the most skilled player in the draft, with world class hands. I would even go as far as saying, in terms of pure stickhandling ability his hands are the dirtiest even across the last 3 drafts. Not only did he outscore Mackinnon in the regular season by 30 points, he continues to do so in the playoffs as well. The point differential in the playoffs is also trending towards the gap widening between the two as Mackinnon had a great start to the playoffs, but Drouin tied him and has taken the lead now.

Playoffs:
Jonathan Drouin 16GP 11G 23A 34PTS
Nathan MacKinnon 16GP 10G 21A 31PTS

Regular Season:
Jonathan Drouin 49GP 41G 64A 105PTS
Nathan Mackinnon 44GP 32G 43A 75PTS

After watching Drouin's slick, slick hands at the world juniors, and reading the articles about his teammates and coaches raving about his pure skill and work ethic, it's hard to imagine there is a better player in this draft than him. I really wish the Flames can somehow manage to select Drouin. I understand Mackinnon is a more complete player, but when you can pickup a guaranteed point per game player, and world class offensive player, I would take Drouin in a heartbeat.

Yes the more I watch Drouin, the more impressed I am...clearly the most offensively skilled player in the draft and I also would be tempted to pick him over Mackinnon...Drouin's hands are unreal...

[Stanley]

Heck the more I watch from both Mackinnon and Drouin the more I start to back-peddle on my "keep the 3 picks" comments...hahaha.

I just don't see Florida or Tampa trading their picks, they need these kids to sell tickets!

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by HockeyInTheHimalayas

I think the question should be, What could Calgary do to move up into the top 3 picks?

Jonathan Drouin at potentially the 3rd overall pick is going to be franchise changer (Of course he may go earlier). Absolutely the most skilled player in the draft, with world class hands. I would even go as far as saying, in terms of pure stickhandling ability his hands are the dirtiest even across the last 3 drafts. Not only did he outscore Mackinnon in the regular season by 30 points, he continues to do so in the playoffs as well. The point differential in the playoffs is also trending towards the gap widening between the two as Mackinnon had a great start to the playoffs, but Drouin tied him and has taken the lead now.

Playoffs:
Jonathan Drouin 16GP 11G 23A 34PTS
Nathan MacKinnon 16GP 10G 21A 31PTS

Regular Season:
Jonathan Drouin 49GP 41G 64A 105PTS
Nathan Mackinnon 44GP 32G 43A 75PTS

After watching Drouin's slick, slick hands at the world juniors, and reading the articles about his teammates and coaches raving about his pure skill and work ethic, it's hard to imagine there is a better player in this draft than him. I really wish the Flames can somehow manage to select Drouin. I understand Mackinnon is a more complete player, but when you can pickup a guaranteed point per game player, and world class offensive player, I would take Drouin in a heartbeat.



Also on those points by Jiri about Sven, I would absolutely agree. Sven's hands aren't "unreal", but his offensive instincts are the big thing with him, coupled with above average offensive attributes, and no real down point on the offensive side. I am quite certain he will be a very good offensive player, very soon, and will not take the same amount of time as Backlund to adjust. I think he will pickup next season where he left off this year, on a hot streak.

Drouin may very well be a "flash in the pan". He's had one dominant season.

He was barely even in the discussion at the start of the season.

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9600

[HockeyInTheHimalayas]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve;4243768[B

Drouin may very well be a "flash in the pan". He's had one dominant season.

He was barely even in the discussion at the start of the season.

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9600

Steve with all due respect, even if you have watched a lot of Drouin, please watch some more of Drouin, you will get a really good chance during the Memorial Cup tournament, as it will be televised. The Halifax Mooseheads are 1 win away from clinching a spot in the tourney (their first QMJHL title in franchise history) tonight in game 5. When you watch him the Memorial cup, there will be no disputing that he has the work ethic, and unbelievable talent, that it is unimaginable that he will not succeed in the NHL.

Let's put it this way, I am so certain with his pure, world class level talent, that it will be more of a surprise if he fails to succeed in the NHL than the other way around. I understand what your saying, if one purely looks at the numbers, there are many, many players who have put up numbers in juniors but failed at the NHL level. However, if you look at his level of skills, it's not good, it's not just above average, it's WORLD CLASS. He will absolutely not fail at any level of hockey with his hands, given that he has a great work ethic, and other attributes like skating and strength are fair to above average.

In fact, I am so certain he will succeed in the NHL, I will personally make a $200 donation to Calgarypuck, and email a moderator with confirmation on that, if Drouin isn't a point per game player in one of his first 5 years in the NHL (He'll probably do it sooner, but I don't want to speak in extremes). Feel free to put this in your signature or someone will, but Jonathan Drouin is an absolute lock as a point per game player in the NHL, his skill is unreal. I will also submit that I will personally ban myself from this site, as I would have no place to be positive, worthwhile contributer on this site if I am wrong about him.

[Captain_Obvious]

I like Drouin a lot but if we come away from this draft without addressing the gaping hole at centre I really don't see us as having moved that much ahead.

Adding another small extremely skilled winger still leaves us with a very difficult hole to fill down the middle.

I really don't see the sense in giving up the enormous return it would take to move that far up in the draft without taking what projects to be a franchise centre.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Drouin may very well be a "flash in the pan". He's had one dominant season.

He was barely even in the discussion at the start of the season.

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9600

No, he's not a flash in the pan.

Try harder next time.

[Hair bleach and Vodka]

Freely admit I'm no scout, analyst, etc.. but does Drouin's shooting percentage raise any eyebrows? I'm not doubting his talent or hands.. just curious.

[IgiTang]

To be able to take Drouin @ #3 and then take Monahan or Lindholm @ #6 would be amazing for this franchise.

If the Flames could get 2 top 6 picks and end up with Mckinnon and Lindholm/Monahan instead of Drouin... still a great scenario.

With that last pick, potentially get a Max Domi or Curtis Lazar. Wow!

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Hair bleach and Vodka

Freely admit I'm no scout, analyst, etc.. but does Drouin's shooting percentage raise any eyebrows? I'm not doubting his talent or hands.. just curious.

I would guess that most elite NHL scorers were very lethal, shooting percentage wise, in the minors.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by HockeyInTheHimalayas

Steve with all due respect, even if you have watched a lot of Drouin, please watch some more of Drouin, you will get a really good chance during the Memorial Cup tournament, as it will be televised. The Halifax Mooseheads are 1 win away from clinching a spot in the tourney (their first QMJHL title in franchise history) tonight in game 5. When you watch him the Memorial cup, there will be no disputing that he has the work ethic, and unbelievable talent, that it is unimaginable that he will not succeed in the NHL.

Let's put it this way, I am so certain with his pure, world class level talent, that it will be more of a surprise if he fails to succeed in the NHL than the other way around. I understand what your saying, if one purely looks at the numbers, there are many, many players who have put up numbers in juniors but failed at the NHL level. However, if you look at his level of skills, it's not good, it's not just above average, it's WORLD CLASS. He will absolutely not fail at any level of hockey with his hands, given that he has a great work ethic, and other attributes like skating and strength are fair to above average.

In fact, I am so certain he will succeed in the NHL, I will personally make a $200 donation to Calgarypuck, and email a moderator with confirmation on that, if Drouin isn't a point per game player in one of his first 5 years in the NHL (He'll probably do it sooner, but I don't want to speak in extremes). Feel free to put this in your signature or someone will, but Jonathan Drouin is an absolute lock as a point per game player in the NHL, his skill is unreal. I will also submit that I will personally ban myself from this site, as I would have no place to be positive, worthwhile contributer on this site if I am wrong about him.

Easy there, tiger. I adore Drouin as a player as much as the next guy, I'm just saying that people are being pretty quick to bash on MacKinnon because Johnathan had a tremendous season.

Both are going to be great players in the bigs.

[HockeyInTheHimalayas]

Originally Posted by Hair bleach and Vodka

Freely admit I'm no scout, analyst, etc.. but does Drouin's shooting percentage raise any eyebrows? I'm not doubting his talent or hands.. just curious.

You raise a good point. My best guess is because Drouin's not a high volume shooter, like Iggy, Stamkos or Ovechkin (guys who always lead the league in shots on goal). Another less successful example includes Chris Clark (that one year in Calgary, he was 2nd to Iggy in shots on the team with over 200 shots if memory serves correct) Drouin never really relies on a setup man to get the puck to him in scoring positions, he's a guy that creates his own time and space, and as such, hangs onto the puck for extended periods. I think there is a trend amongst players that excessively dangle, they tend to take a fewer amount of shots, and higher quality shots as well. They also have a propensity for dangling around, then finding the open man, because they can create offense for others as well. A bit of a stretch from Drouin's wolrd class level, but nonetheless an example, although Tanguay and Hemsky aren't exactly world class in terms of production, they both are similar in that they can dangle and feel comfortable holding onto the puck for longer periods than the average player. You don't typically see either one of them "throwing it on net" like other players or to borrow another common phrase "shooting it from all angles", just for the sake of it like other players. Those two players also tend to have better shooting percentages as well. How many times does Mike Rogers on the Fan960 say "I wish Tanguay shot a lot more, he's got a great shot" etc. Certain players just have a knack for artistry and they don't see the value or purpose of taking those shots which are low percentage, when they feel confident in their deking skills to get themselves in a better shooting area. However I do think Drouin gets more to the point than Tanguay, and will not be a player that simply won't shoot for the sake of passing.

This is not to say, high volume shooting is wrong either. One cannot fault the high volume shooters, as they usually win the goal scoring awards, but a lot of the highlight reel goals, go to the players typically with higher shooting percentages because they ensure the goalie is totally deked out or their picking a corner before they shoot. They also tend to be the more skilled players and guys who can really playmake.

For me, his shooting percentage doesn't raise any flags at all, given Drouin's in the "artiste" mold of player. Another reason it doesn't raise concerns, is that Drouin got the pedigree and drive to score goals than most other "artiste" type of players.


edited to add a stat fyi for those wondering: in the regular season Drouin led the team in goals with 41 goals in 49 games while ranking 5th in shots on the team.

[HockeyInTheHimalayas]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Easy there, tiger. I adore Drouin as a player as much as the next guy, I'm just saying that people are being pretty quick to bash on MacKinnon because Johnathan had a tremendous season.

Both are going to be great players in the bigs.

Ok, fair enough, but I didn't get that from when you said Drouin could be a flash in the pan.

Secondly, perhaps there are some people bashing MacKinnon, but I'm not one of them, in fact I didn't mention anything about him, other than that Drouin is better. It's obvious he will be a good player as well. I'm just throwing it out there, if the topic about trading up to get MacKinnon is broached, then trading to get Drouin should be in the conversation, because he's the better player. The best retort so far, was when CaptainObvious mentioned our glaring need for a centerman, which made me pause to really consider MacKinnon, as much as I think Drouin is the best player available.

[StrykerSteve]

I'm just saying that because of the relatively small sample size, he could be a flash in the pan. All signs point to that not being the case though, just felt it was worth mentioning. The year prior to this season, he had 29 points in 33 games, and was a -5. Meanwhile, Mac had 78 points in 58 games, and was a +11. Hence Drouin not being a part of the top 10 conversation at the start of this season.

The two have really gelled this year though, obviously. And even while each other were out with injuries this season, it hasn't impacted either of them significantly, definitely a good sign.

Any team would be lucky to have either of them, but I lean towards Mac because A) he's a natural 6'0-182 Centerman (who is still growing), and B) he's been performing at that level for a longer period of time.

Doesn't matter though, Calgary's not getting either of them unless Feaster somehow pulls a magical rabbit out of his ass.