[Rumour] Flames to move AHL affiliate to Utica NY. UPD: Canucks move affiliate to Utica

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

just a reminder the Utica rumors were for 2014/15 not next season. Utica is upgrading the Aud and I do not think it will be ready for the 2013/14 season.

The Canucksaffiliate could potentially play in Vancouver next year and share an arena with the Giants.

In that scenario, they'd play in Rogers Arena. Why pay someone else to rent their facility when you have your own building?

Assuming the Canucks want to try again for Abbotsford, then that places them in a poor spot with the minor league team. Peoria isn't happy about losing their team, but I doubt they'd support a lame duck season. Nor would nearly anywhere else. Playing in Vancouver directly might be the best short term option, and certainly helps both Abbotsford and the rest of the AHL from a travel perspective.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

In that scenario, they'd play in Rogers Arena. Why pay someone else to rent their facility when you have your own building?

Assuming the Canucks want to try again for Abbotsford, then that places them in a poor spot with the minor league team. Peoria isn't happy about losing their team, but I doubt they'd support a lame duck season. Nor would nearly anywhere else. Playing in Vancouver directly might be the best short term option, and certainly helps both Abbotsford and the rest of the AHL from a travel perspective.

I suggested the Pacific Coliseum rather than Rogers Arena because I think more money can be made on the other events held in the arena than they will lose in paying rent, if Rogers Arena sat empty between Canuck games I would agree with you, but I am guessing it hosts other major events in the city as well.

[flamesaresmokin]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

Weird. Why does our affiliate move seemingly every 3-5 years?

Huge miss by KK and his group on this for the second or third time. He's been unable to get into a stable market and I'd look no further then him for answers as to why.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I suggested the Pacific Coliseum rather than Rogers Arena because I think more money can be made on the other events held in the arena than they will lose in paying rent, if Rogers Arena sat empty between Canuck games I would agree with you, but I am guessing it hosts other major events in the city as well.

I don't think the Giants would let an AHL team play in that building, though. And if they did, they wouldn't get any of the prime weekend dates. Lack of weekend dates is probably a similar issue when it comes to playing in Rogers Arena I bet.

[The Swedish Flame]

Can someone clear some things up for me?

Do we know that the Flames are trying to relocate to Utica?
If so, is that only because the Canucks want to move to Abbotsford? Or are there other factors that make Abbotsford a bad market for the Flames so that the Flames will want out no matter what?

[FlamesAddiction]

I remember back before the Jets came back, there was a rumour that the Saskatoon Blades were going to move to Winnipeg and the Moose were going to Saskatoon. I am thinking that it was just that... a rumour.

But I would love to see Saskatoon get an AHL team. If the Canucks managed to put theirs there, it might lend itself to a natural switcharoo between the Flames and Canucks one day.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by The Swedish Flame

Can someone clear some things up for me?

Do we know that the Flames are trying to relocate to Utica?

It's just a rumour as far as I know. There is a group in Utica pushing for a franchise but the arena only holds 4,000.

If so, is that only because the Canucks want to move to Abbotsford? Or are there other factors that make Abbotsford a bad market for the Flames so that the Flames will want out no matter what?

bolded for part of answer.
The attendance in Abbotsford has been near the bottom of the league since they got the AHL team. The city makes up some of the loses but the atmosphere isn't good with an empty building and fans cheering against them.

On the other hand they are only an hour away for call ups, so this is good. I'd guess that Peoria sounds like a good option for the Heat if they move. Not close for call ups but good attendance.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by flamesaresmokin

Huge miss by KK and his group on this for the second or third time. He's been unable to get into a stable market and I'd look no further then him for answers as to why.

AHL affiliates always change constantly. The Heat have been around 4 years so far, doesn't sound like much but if you look around the AHL it's actually not that bad. Here is when the current AHL teams played the first game with their current affiliates. Keep in mind some of these teams have existed longer, but as affiliates for other NHL teams, for example the Hershey Bears have been around since 1936 but have only been with the Capitals since 2005.

• Providence Bruins (Bruins) - 1992
• Connecticut Whale/Hartford Wolfpack (Rangers) - 1997 (Changing name back to Hartford Wolfpack in 2013-14)
• Wilke-Barre/Scranton Penguins (Penguins) - 1999
• Bridgeport Sound Tigers (Islanders) - 2001
• Houston Aeros (Wild) - 2001 (Wild have announced they are moving the Aeros to Des Moines Iowa for the 2013-14 season)
• Manchester Monarchs (Kings) - 2001
• Milwaukee Admirals (Predators) - 2001
• Binghamton Senators (Senators) - 2002
• Grand Rapids Griffins (Red Wings) - 2002
• Hamilton Bulldogs (Canadiens) - 2002
• Hershey Bears (Capitals) - 2005
• Peoria Rivermen (Blues) - 2005 (Blues have cancelled the lease for the 2013-14 season and sold AHL team to the Canucks)
• Toronto Marlies (Maple Leafs) - 2005
• Worcester Sharks (Sharks) - 2006
• Lake Erie Monsters - 2007
• Rockford Ice Hogs - 2007
• Abbotsford Heat (Flames) - 2009
• Adirondack Phantoms (Flyers) - 2009 (Moving to Allentown for the 2014-15 Season)
• Teaxas Stars (Stars) - 2009
• Albany Devils (Devils) - 2010
• Charlotte Checkers (Hurricanes) - 2010
• Oklahoma City Barons (Oilers) - 2010
• Springfield Falcons (Blue Jackets) - 2010
• Chicago Wolves (Canucks) - 2011 (Affiliation ends after 2012-13, it is rumoured the Blues will be the new affiliates)
• Portland Pirates (Coyotes) - 2011
• Rochester Americans (Sabres) - 2011
• San Antonio Rampage (Panthers) - 2011
• St. John's Ice Caps (Jets) - 2011
• Norfolk Admirals (Ducks) - 2012
• Syracuse Crunch (Lightning) - 2012

So including the Heat 14 of 30 AHL affiliations started in 2009 or later, with 2 of the older ones changing for next season. It is not nearly as mismanaged as people make it out to be.

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

bolded for part of answer.
The attendance in Abbotsford has been near the bottom of the league since they got the AHL team. The city makes up some of the loses but the atmosphere isn't good with an empty building and fans cheering against them.

On the other hand they are only an hour away for call ups, so this is good. I'd guess that Peoria sounds like a good option for the Heat if they move. Not close for call ups but good attendance.

UTICA:
-Close to eastern seaboard
-Closer to most other AHL markets
-Less travel, travel costs
-Nobody's sure if it's a good hockey market

ABBOTSFORD:
-Close to Vancouver and Calgary
-Far, far away from most other AHL markets
-Lots of travel, travel costs (less practice days and days off)
-Nobody's sure if it's a good hockey market
-Flames have their losses covered by the city

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I remember back before the Jets came back, there was a rumour that the Saskatoon Blades were going to move to Winnipeg and the Moose were going to Saskatoon. I am thinking that it was just that... a rumour.

But I would love to see Saskatoon get an AHL team. If the Canucks managed to put theirs there, it might lend itself to a natural switcharoo between the Flames and Canucks one day.

Move the Blades to Abbotsford and the Heat to Saskatoon. There would have to be a good deal for the Blades to do this though.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I don't think the Giants would let an AHL team play in that building, though. And if they did, they wouldn't get any of the prime weekend dates. Lack of weekend dates is probably a similar issue when it comes to playing in Rogers Arena I bet.

I never thought of the weekend dates, great points.

Originally Posted by The Swedish Flame

Can someone clear some things up for me?

Do we know that the Flames are trying to relocate to Utica?
If so, is that only because the Canucks want to move to Abbotsford? Or are there other factors that make Abbotsford a bad market for the Flames so that the Flames will want out no matter what?

The rumor had Utica trying to lure the Heat there for 2014-15, but not before because the improvements to the Utica Auditorium will not be completed by then.

People also bring up the size of the arena in Utica as an issue (4000 seat approximately) but in the AHL the lease can mean as much as the tickets sold. The Wild are moving the Aeros from Houston to Des Moines and are going to be saving $14,000 per game on their lease. In Houston their lowest ticket price was $14, if they keep that the same in the new arena they could sell 1000 less of their cheapest tickets per game and make the same amount of money (of course it's not quite this simple with lower bowl tickets and luxury boxes, but you get the point).

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

People also bring up the size of the arena in Utica as an issue (4000 seat approximately) but in the AHL the lease can mean as much as the tickets sold. The Wild are moving the Aeros from Houston to Des Moines and are going to be saving $14,000 per game on their lease. In Houston their lowest ticket price was $14, if they keep that the same in the new arena they could sell 1000 less of their cheapest tickets per game and make the same amount of money (of course it's not quite this simple with lower bowl tickets and luxury boxes, but you get the point).

Another advantage for Des Moines this time around is that they're owned by the parent team. That should help a lot with marketing and stability. They have an amazing rink, also. $10,000 per game is an unreal rate for an arena of that calibre. What killed Omaha was having to play in that crappy old rink.

[jschick88]

Lots of information in this article. According to the article the Flames were were willing to step aside and make room for the Canucks.

Both of the parties which run the Heat – the Flames, who own the team and handle the hockey operations, and Fraser Valley Sports and Entertainment (FVSE), which manages the business side – were willing to step aside and make room for the Canucks.

That's according to FVSE's Lane Sweeting, who said his group gave the City of Abbotsford and the Canucks "the opportunity to make a deal."

http://www.abbynews.com/news/204174211.html

[Alberta_Beef]

just because it's been apart of the rumors

http://www.chicagowolves.com/news/re...st-louis-blues

the Chicago Wolves & St. Louis Blues have come to a 3 year affiliate agreement.

[PeteMoss]

Should move the Canucks AHL team to Flint, MI. Somehow I don't think they'd appreciate the diving ways there.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont see what the Flames, who are successfully running their own team already, would get out of that deal.

How is the team being successful? It's losing a ridiculous amount of money. Put Vancouver prospects in Abbotsford and all of a sudden the GVRD Canucks fanbase starts coming out to watch. Attendance probably skyrockets...

[868904]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

How is the team being successful? It's losing a ridiculous amount of money. Put Vancouver prospects in Abbotsford and all of a sudden the GVRD Canucks fanbase starts coming out to watch. Attendance probably skyrockets...

It is successful for the Flames, they don't incur any losses. It's a sweetheart deal, why should the Flames help out the Canucks or the City?

The Flames shouldn't give a damn whether the local fan base cheers for them or not. The prospects are there to learn, whether the rink is empty or not, it makes no difference.

Anyways, reading the article, it sounds like the Flames were willing to move anyways and it's the Canucks and the City that can't come to an agreement. It sounds like the Canucks want the same sweetheart deal that the Flames got, and the City is saying no. If that's the case, i'm not sure why they couldn't come to an agreement. YOu'd think that if the Canucks were in there, attendance would go up and there wouldn't be any losses, so there would be no real need for the same type of deal the Flames had.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I suggested the Pacific Coliseum rather than Rogers Arena because I think more money can be made on the other events held in the arena than they will lose in paying rent, if Rogers Arena sat empty between Canuck games I would agree with you, but I am guessing it hosts other major events in the city as well.

Judging by their event calendar, Rogers Arena does sit empty when the Canucks aren't playing:

http://www.rogersarena.ca/coming-att...event-calendar

Looking at February, for instance, they had only two non-Canucks events scheduled. The Saddledome had two such events as well, plus four Hitmen and a Roughnecks game.

March was a little busier with non-Canucks events at four. The Saddledome had three non-sporting events, eight Hitmen games and three Roughnecks games.

It's actually kind of amazing to see how underutilized Rogers Arena is.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Judging by their event calendar, Rogers Arena does sit empty when the Canucks aren't playing:

http://www.rogersarena.ca/coming-att...event-calendar

Looking at February, for instance, they had only two non-Canucks events scheduled. The Saddledome had two such events as well, plus four Hitmen and a Roughnecks game.

March was a little busier with non-Canucks events at four. The Saddledome had three non-sporting events, eight Hitmen games and three Roughnecks games.

It's actually kind of amazing to see how underutilized Rogers Arena is.

That's the problem with having a competing facility in the market. Hopefully when the Flames move to a new arena they don't keep the Saddledome running.

Columbus has the same issue and it almost bankrupted Nationwide Arena.

[Resolute 14]

I am a little surprised the Canucks haven't tried bringing a lacrosse team back to Vancouver. The NLL would be all over it and it would fill at least nine more dates in that arena. Promote it well and push the Western Canadian rivalry with the Rush and Roughnecks, and surely they could do better than the Ravens did.