Use of Native American Imagery in Sports

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Cole436

There's an instant stigmatization about being a native in this country.

Well I grew up in close proximity to a reserve and can tell you that it's not stigmatization. It's describing a sizeable portion of the population. Sure they aren't all like that but you really have to see first hand yourself before you start to understand the reality of reserves.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by superfarmer

Give me a break take a drive out to you nearest local reserve sometime and see what they have been handed. I'm so sick of this city attitude towards the native problems.

Huh?

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

I don't find the native community all up and arms over this, if anything it pushes there culture into the mainstream.

Are you suggesting that using the racial slur of "Redskin" is somehow pushing the native culture into the mainstream? Does Harvey the Hound inspire people to talk about cruelty to animals? I don't understand what you're getting at.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Blackhawk is in honour of the slaughter of American Natives in the Blackhawk war, which was pretty much a complete bloodbath for the Natives. Black Hawk lived and was transported east where they got him out at various towns to show his face (along with the other captured Natives) so that everyone knew who won the slaughter. People would come out and burn the images of the Natives in effigy, once they arrived at their final destination they settled in to live out most of their remaining days in prison.

Not sure how other ethnic groups would react if sports teams were named to honour times when they were slaughtered but I would guess they would find it equally offensive.

The Markham Holocaust doesn't grab you as a team name? It doesn't even have an S on the end of it!

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by Armchair Quarterback

It's true that it refers to the original French settlers of Quebec but today it is considered an insult because the "habitant" way of life was associated with cultural and econommic backwardness for a long time (see for example Fernand Ouellet's Economic and Social History of Quebec). If you don't believe me, go to Quebec and call someone there an habitant. You're sure to get a good smack in the face.

I play hockey with a bunch of transplanted Quebecers. Most of them wear Habs colours and they all refer to the Canadiens as the Habs. Nothing has ever happened to indicate to me that habitants might be an insult. Not that I doubt you. It's just never come up and it never occurred to me.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Chad_Flames

I say this as a white dude: If there's one thing that white people hate, it's political correctness.

People of all races share that same thought.

[GGG]

On the native names I think that the level of racism towards native groups in Canada is far greater than in the US. So white canadian views of these names and native canadian views of these names are framed through a high level of racism in Canada. Therefore none of our opinions are valid except for inuit and their opinion of the eskimo name.

So really the only opinions that matter on the issue are native groups in the area. So if a majority of native groups in illinois are offended then the name should be changed if not it should be left. I would phrase the question to give three choices Proud of Name, Indifferent/abstain, and offened. If offended outweighs proud then the name goes. In the UND case this would have allowed them to keep the name. The same should be done for the logos and mascots as well. Before any of these types of votes take place the issue needs to be brought forward by a native group who is offended. This should not be a campaign by whitety who is embarassed by the way they treated minorities in the past. White guilt shouldnt drive the change Native pride should.

Now in my white opinion that doesnt matter

Indians name is okay but the logo is offensive, Indian in the us is not a racist term like Canada
Redskins name is offensive the logo is not
Blackhawks name in logo are about celebrating a warrior who was mistreated, not celebrating the mistreatment. I believe the regiment named themselves to represent the battlefield skill and courage of Blackhawk therefore non offensive.
Eskimos -- offensive
Braves okay, tomahok chop seems offensive

[flylock shox]

I think it's largely a question of intent and portrayal.

Just on the face of things, you can distinguish between the Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians. "Indians" just refers to a group at large, like "Caucasians" or "Black People." "Braves" refers to a subset of a group, specifically warriors, that embody a set of characteristics that a sports team might rightly want to emulate. The "Indians" moniker doesn't do the same thing, and coupled with its Sambo-like symbol, looks to be nothing more than a racist portrayal of a group in its entirety.

The name "Redskins" is just flat out sad: it's like "Indians" only just clearly pejorative.

The parallel with names like the "Fighting Irish" or "Celtics" just doesn't exist: in those cases it's a case of people reclaiming their own heritage, rather than someone else's.

Political correctness is one thing, and might be argued in relation to a name like "Braves", but names like "Redskins" and the logo used by the Cleveland Indians are no-brainers: there's nothing respectful about them.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

^Case in point...the Florida State Seminoles (Whose logo looks similar to the Redskins/Blackhawks) logo is no problem (or is it?) since the represented Tribe (Band? Nation?) has given their endorsement.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Are you suggesting that using the racial slur of "Redskin" is somehow pushing the native culture into the mainstream? Does Harvey the Hound inspire people to talk about cruelty to animals? I don't understand what you're getting at.

to you its Racist

not to the American Indian population according to a poll when the debate on the team name was at its highest.

"in 2004, a poll by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania essentially confirmed the prior poll's findings, concluding that 91% of the American Indians surveyed in the 48 states on the mainland USA found the name acceptable and setting out in detail the exact wording of the questions.[63]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing...ot_controversy

Many like myself see it as glorifying the natives past. So, yes these names do put Indians into the mainstream, obviously your insulted by it and see it as a negative, I don't. If you think these names put down the native culture, go get a sign and protest in front of Western Canada High School, and demand the school change it's name the Redmen.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Calgary Wops? That's fine. Petty, ..but fine.

What evidence do you have to support the claim that these sports logos are offensive to most or all native people? The only remotely offensive one is the Redskins but here we have people wanting to ban practically every native image in the public eye.

As an Italian-Canadian, I would absolutely not be fine with that.

The Redskins is not a remotely offensive term, it is a very offensive term. Racially, it's one of the most derogatory names you can call an Aboriginal person. From my research in Native populations in Canada, there's been considerable note on the idea of language and self identification. The term Redskin, for all accounts and purposes definitely falls into those categories.

And no one in this thread is saying ban every Aboriginal logo. The logo's in discussion are the Redskins (racism), Blackhawks (rests historically on a Native slaughter) and Indians (because of the logo)

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by Cole436

As an Italian-Canadian, I would absolutely not be fine with that.

The Redskins is not a remotely offensive term, it is a very offensive term. Racially, it's one of the most derogatory names you can call an Aboriginal person. From my research in Native populations in Canada, there's been considerable note on the idea of language and self identification. The term Redskin, for all accounts and purposes definitely falls into those categories.

And no one in this thread is saying ban every Aboriginal logo. The logo's in discussion are the Redskins (racism), Blackhawks (rests historically on a Native slaughter) and Indians (because of the logo)

No your wrong it's based after a Military unit that used its name in honor of Chief Black Hawk



The team's first owner was coffee tycoon Frederic McLaughlin, who outbid grain magnate James E. Norris for the franchise. McLaughlin had been a commander with the 333rd Machine Gun Battalion of the 86th Infantry Division during World War I.[2] This Division was nicknamed the "Blackhawk Division", after a Native American of the Sauk nation, Chief Black Hawk, who was a prominent figure in the history of Illinois.[2] McLaughlin evidently named the hockey team in honor of the military unit, making it one of many sports team names using Native Americans as icons. For many years, the name was spelled "Black Hawks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Blackhawks

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

No your wrong it's based after Chief Black Hawk, it was done in honor.



The team's first owner was coffee tycoon Frederic McLaughlin, who outbid grain magnate James E. Norris for the franchise. McLaughlin had been a commander with the 333rd Machine Gun Battalion of the 86th Infantry Division during World War I.[2] This Division was nicknamed the "Blackhawk Division", after a Native American of the Sauk nation, Chief Black Hawk, who was a prominent figure in the history of Illinois.[2] McLaughlin evidently named the hockey team in honor of the military unit, making it one of many sports team names using Native Americans as icons. For many years, the name was spelled "Black Hawks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Blackhawks

One of the important things about studying symbols in society (especially from a symbolic interactionalist perspective) is you have to go deeper into the meanings behind the ideas. While this logo was created with the intent of honouring the military unit, who were using Chief Blackhawks name, the legacy of Chief Blackhawk is one of domination and subordination by white Americans. And unfortunately, that's the story at the heart of that logo.

[Johnny Rotten]

I think the name Redskins has been used so often and for so long that people just accept it; not that that is right, but I think most people don't think of the name as being derogatory, which probably isn't a good thing.

What would happen if a New York sports team called themseves the NY N-----s? (I don't mean Nannies.). I don't think any smart person would find that acceptable, so I can see why people see Redskins as unacceptable.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

to you its Racist

not to the American Indian population according to a poll when the debate on the team name was at its highest.

"in 2004, a poll by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania essentially confirmed the prior poll's findings, concluding that 91% of the American Indians surveyed in the 48 states on the mainland USA found the name acceptable and setting out in detail the exact wording of the questions.[63]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing...ot_controversy

A couple of issues with that poll:

1) it is 10 years old

2) it only included 768 people (very small representative sampling)

3) the question was not worded very well:
“The professional football team in Washington calls itself the

Washington Redskins. As a Native American, do you find that name offensive or doesn’t it bother you?”

Even if we assume that the polling was accurate and still applicable today that's still 9% of the native population in the US that considers the name "Redskins" to be inappropriate. That means of a population of approximately 3 million American Indians, about 270,000 people are offended by the term.

Many like myself see it as glorifying the natives past. So, yes these names do put Indians into the mainstream, obviously your insulted by it and see it as a negative, I don't. If you think these names put down the native culture, go get a sign and protest in front of Western Canada High School, and demand the school change it's name the Redmen.

I get what you're saying in terms of honouring the civilization. As a matter of fact, I see team names like "Blackhawks" and "Braves" as more of an homage than an insult. However, the "Redskins" moniker is a racial epitath. How do people not get that?

[Stay Golden]

Its pretty simple if anyone doesn't think that Redskin is not offensive to a native. Go out to any reserve and just say in your most friendly voice
Hi ya Redskin and see what happens next.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well I grew up in close proximity to a reserve and can tell you that it's not stigmatization. It's describing a sizeable portion of the population. Sure they aren't all like that but you really have to see first hand yourself before you start to understand the reality of reserves.

So you're basing your perception of Natives on your experience from a single reserve? From all my research, the variations in the quality of reserves are massive. And considering the amount of reserves in Canada, that's a very hard statement to justify. Also do you include the 70% of Aboriginals living off reserves? Where their level of education is almost the same as non-Aboriginal Canadians?

[Weirdness]

Originally Posted by blankall

We don't have any teams called the "Whiteys" or the "Crackers".

Not a professional team, but I do remember several years ago some university students were in the news for the name and logo of their rec team:

Spoiler!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Cole436

One of the important things about studying symbols in society (especially from a symbolic interactionalist perspective) is you have to go deeper into the meanings behind the ideas. While this logo was created with the intent of honouring the military unit, who were using Chief Blackhawks name, the legacy of Chief Blackhawk is one of domination and subordination by white Americans. And unfortunately, that's the story at the heart of that logo.

the problem is the fact people dig to look for negative connotations, so because the Hawks are named after a group that was named after a massacre it means it has racist intent? that's a reach. It's like this woman I know complaining it was racist that her boss bought the staff fried chicken for lunch one day just because she was black. if you dig you can find anythign and that is the problem with this PC crap. If they want to change the redskins, fine, I get that. But all the other ones that aren't as blatantly racist? no, that's ridiculous.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

the problem is the fact people dig to look for negative connotations, so because the Hawks are named after a group that was named after a massacre it means it has racist intent? that's a reach. It's like this woman I know complaining it was racist that her boss bought the staff fried chicken for lunch one day just because she was black. if you dig you can find anythign and that is the problem with this PC crap. If they want to change the redskins, fine, I get that. But all the other ones that aren't as blatantly racist? no, that's ridiculous.

The intent behind Symbolic Interactionalism is not at all to find negative intent. It's intent is an objective investigation into what the signs and meanings in our lives really represent. It's digging for understanding and meaning. And the logo was named after war troop, who used the name from the Chief, and that Chief is only widely know because he was a symbol of domination and prejudice. Thus, the intention may not be racist, but the symbol is.

Another example is the pizza shop in Inglewood, Without Papers (or WOP). It was named by the owner as a jab at the owner of Pulcinella, in Kensington. The owner in Pucinella has signed papers that he is certified to make authentic Napolitana pizza. The owner of WOP doesn't, but still makes the same pizza. He named the shop as a joke, but the power of the word still makes it a ethnic slur.