Jon Gillies (3rd rounder 2012)

[albertGQ]

^^^ why would the Flames send him to Finland and not have control?

He'll be in Abby or Calgary as soon as he signs with the Flames

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

^^^ why would the Flames send him to Finland and not have control?

He'll be in Abby or Calgary as soon as he signs with the Flames

Because Finland is a goalie factory.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Because Finland is a goalie factory.

So is the NCAA recently

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

So is the NCAA recently

Sure but odds are he'll need some seasoning. I understand he probably has little chance of being sent to Finland but I think it should be considered.

[Dorkmaster]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If Gillies turns pro, I wouldn't mind having him sent to Finland for some seasoning. It seemed to work well with Ortio.

Makes zero sense. You want him to play in North American rinks. Strange suggestion.

[BloodFetish]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Because Finland is a goalie factory.

Of goalies born in Finland. They are not a North American goalie refurbishment factory.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Sure but odds are he'll need some seasoning. I understand he probably has little chance of being sent to Finland but I think it should be considered.

I think little is an overstatement. I think zero chance is the term you are looking for

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by BloodFetish

Of goalies born in Finland. They are not a North American goalie refurbishment factory.

Irving's doing pretty well there.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If Gillies turns pro, I wouldn't mind having him sent to Finland for some seasoning. It seemed to work well with Ortio.

Originally Posted by BloodFetish

Of goalies born in Finland. They are not a North American goalie refurbishment factory.

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Irving's doing pretty well there.

Irving hasn't furthered his NHL career or proven to have furthered his development as a goalie by going to Finland. He's simply gone to a lower league and had success. North American players tend to go there when they have tried and failed to crack the NHL full-time and no longer have NHL ties.

The notion of sending a young, North American born, goaltending prospect to Finland for seasoning is just a silly idea. As BloodFetish pointed out, Finnish goalies have success in large part because of their development from a young age. As albertGQ eluded to, for someone Gillies' age there are appropriate pro leagues in North America to get quality playing time and coaching to take the next step. Ending up on a team outside the Flames' organization in a foreign country with language and cultural barriers offer some big disadvantages for development.

[Vulcan]

Tim Thomas played in Finland 4 different years. It seemed to work for him.

I think a lot of you just aren't use to thinking outside of the box. As far as I'm concerned Finland has the best school for developing goalies. All things being equal, that is, the prospect being willing and a team willing to take him, the possibility of sending a prospect there should be considered.

[devo22]

Can you think of a non-Finnish/non-European prospect who was assigned to Finland? Can't think of one. I get what you're saying, but that just never happens. Makes no sense for a team to send a goaltender, who is in your long-term plans and who is used to the NA game, to a European league where the rinks, angles etc are all different.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by getbak

Neither is Burke. He has never drafted a goalie before the third round...

Hartford, 1992 & 1993 Drafts. 19 total picks, 1 goalie:

• 1993 - Manny Legace, Round 8 (188 overall)

Vancouver, 1998-2003 Drafts. 54 total picks, 4 goalies:

• 1999 - Kevin Swanson, Round 7 (189 overall)
• 2002 - Lukas Mensator, Round 3 (83 overall)
• 2002 - Rob McVicar, Round 5 (151 overall)
• 2002 - Matt Violin, Round 8 (247 overall)

Anaheim, 2005-2008 Drafts. 29 total picks, 4 goalies:

• 2005 - Jean-Philippe Levasseur, Round 7 (197 overall)
• 2007 - Sebastian Stefaniszin, Round 4 (98 overall)
• 2007 - Mattias Modig, Round 4 (121 overall)
• 2008 - Marco Cousineau, Round 3 (83 overall)

Toronto, 2009-2012 Drafts. 29 total picks, 1 goalie:

• 2011 - Garret Sparks, Round 7 (190 overall)

Burke has talked about drafting a goalie this year, but his history doesn't point to it being an early pick. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Penguins' pick in the third will be a goalie.

Demko will almost certainly be gone by then. I wouldn't be surprised to see him picked late in the first round.

Yikes! There's only one NHL goalie on that list and that's career backup Manny Legace. Doesn't fill me with confidence in Burke's ability to draft goaltenders.

[Francis's Hairpiece]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Yikes! There's only one NHL goalie on that list and that's career backup Manny Legace. Doesn't fill me with confidence in Burke's ability to draft goaltenders.

Fortunately Flames scouts will be adding their input.

Personally I hope they look at Mason McDonald. Should be available in the 3rd.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Yikes! There's only one NHL goalie on that list and that's career backup Manny Legace. Doesn't fill me with confidence in Burke's ability to draft goaltenders.

One guy - any one guy, the GM, the head scout, whoever - is NOT personally responsible for all of the picks made by the team he was with for the entire tenure of his time with that team.

No GM in the NHL goes out and personally scouts all the 3rd, 4th, 5th round picks himself.

I would think that the GM would usually have a great deal of input with respect to 1st round picks. After that, not so much.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

One guy - any one guy, the GM, the head scout, whoever - is NOT personally responsible for all of the picks made by the team he was with for the entire tenure of his time with that team.

No GM in the NHL goes out and personally scouts all the 3rd, 4th, 5th round picks himself.

I would think that the GM would usually have a great deal of input with respect to 1st round picks. After that, not so much.

I get and mostly agree with what you are saying. I just wanted to add that a GM is ultimately responsible for the draft.

This is the part where I was 'unhappy' with the announcement of the Burke hire, and became even more apprehensive after he let Weisbrod go.

Burke hasn't seemed able to implement a strong scouting staff in his different tenures around the league. It does take a long time to put together a strong staff and start seeing results (as Darryl was only starting to find success near the end of his tenure). However, you can't credit Feaster for being a strong draft GM for all the picks under him, and you can't exactly disregard Burke for the poor showings either.

What would be really be much more insightful (and harder to track) would be the scouting personnel changes and any directives the GM gave (i.e. "preference for size", "preference on D", etc).

For example, has Burke been a sub-par GM at drafting because he has brought along parts of the same scouting staff from one team to another? How much of a budget was provided for each team? Did he start making changes to the scouting department, and have they continued along the same path he has created (like Sutter in Calgary, for instance)? Did he press the owners for a bigger budget (if it was small) for both the drafting and developmental programs?

I find it difficult to grade a GM on drafting in any organization except for the GMs around the league that have held long tenures on the same team (Holland in Detroit, Lou in NJ, etc).

I just wish it was easier to see the moves within scouting departments - directives I would imagine would be tough to figure out, as they would be a more closely guarded secret akin to their final draft lists, but would be nice to at least see the moves on different teams and see how the moves impacted the success rate of the draft in subsequent years.

You are spot on, however - it is tough to attribute the complete onus on any one person in the organization (both positive and negative). If this year's draft turns out to be a complete flop, will it be because of Burke? Probably not. If it is awesome, it is still tough to give him credit.

To gauge if a GM was good or bad as at drafting and development, you have to look at the program a few years before he took over and see which way it was trending, look at the moves they made in those departments in the subsequent years, and see how they were trending in their tenure and just beyond.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Irving's doing pretty well there.

Irving also had eye surgery at the end of his tenure with the Flames. I suspect that may have helped his game out a lot.

Re: Thomas. True, but we have to remember Thomas pretty much breaks every law of goaltending in the league from style down on down. It would concern me if we're relying on Thomas to lie down an example.

The thing that concerns me about thinking Finland is a "goaltending factory" is the way goaltending is taught. Finnish goaltending often comes down to active glove and foot shuffling as the core fundamental talent to keep control of their positioning. I'm not convinced these play into Gillies' style. Gillies plays a traditional butterfly with aggressive movements. Is it true some goalies shift style over career? Of course. We saw Vernon go from a hybrid to a butterfly. But I'm not convinced that giving him lessons in that helps as much as letting him keep what he finds success in.

Now, if the Flames had drafted a 10 year old Gillies and told him to go overseas and learn how to play this style from the ground up, I'd probably agree. Traditional Finnish goaltending is a beautiful art.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Yikes! There's only one NHL goalie on that list and that's career backup Manny Legace. Doesn't fill me with confidence in Burke's ability to draft goaltenders.

By the time you get to those rounds, the GM is doing little else than 'signing off' on who the scouts pick. Like anything beyond the first round goalies are all scouts, player development and a whole lot of luck.






For a fun fact: since 1997 the Flames have picked 15 goalies in the draft. Only one has played more than 100 games in the NHL (Craig Anderson, who re-entered the draft). The second most successful Flames goalie pick since...Curtiss McElhinney. Let that sink in for a second. 15 picks and the second most accomplished is McBackup. Number 3 is Dany Sabourin. Yikes.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by kirant

Irving also had eye surgery at the end of his tenure with the Flames. I suspect that may have helped his game out a lot.

Re: Thomas. True, but we have to remember Thomas pretty much breaks every law of goaltending in the league from style down on down. It would concern me if we're relying on Thomas to lie down an example.

The thing that concerns me about thinking Finland is a "goaltending factory" is the way goaltending is taught. Finnish goaltending often comes down to active glove and foot shuffling as the core fundamental talent to keep control of their positioning. I'm not convinced these play into Gillies' style. Gillies plays a traditional butterfly with aggressive movements. Is it true some goalies shift style over career? Of course. We saw Vernon go from a hybrid to a butterfly. But I'm not convinced that giving him lessons in that helps as much as letting him keep what he finds success in.

Now, if the Flames had drafted a 10 year old Gillies and told him to go overseas and learn how to play this style from the ground up, I'd probably agree. Traditional Finnish goaltending is a beautiful art.

Yeah, the eye surgery may help. My personnel take on Irving's bad season last year is that he thought as the Flames backup and the lockout being on, he didn't prepare properly for the season as he thought he had time. He got caught with his pants down when sent to Abbotsford and never recovered. When the season resumed I think Kiprusoff got caught out of shape as well.

and thanks for the analysis of Finnish goalies and Gillies style, good post.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Yeah, the eye surgery may help. My personnel take on Irving's bad season last year is that he thought as the Flames backup and the lockout being on, he didn't prepare properly for the season as he thought he had time. He got caught with his pants down when sent to Abbotsford and never recovered. When the season resumed I think Kiprusoff got caught out of shape as well.

and thanks for the analysis of Finnish goalies and Gillies style, good post.

I am not sure if Irving did get caught with his pants down or not. I just kept seeing him continually lose his spot to career AHL'ers. He would always be awarded the starting role in Abbotsford, and he would often end up losing it. Keetley, Brust and Taylor all took it from him. None of those guys are NHL caliber either.

Berra comes in and he plays solid on the Heat. Ortio comes in and plays lights-out.

I personally didn't like Irving's style in net, though he had his moments for sure. He just never got over that 'inconsistency' hump that separates good goalies from bad ones.

[devo22]

Gillies leads HFs top list of drafted NCAA goaltenders.

This has been an interesting season for Jon Gillies. After a strong first half that included a solid World Junior Championship performance, Gillies has struggled a bit to win games in the second half. He has bounced back nicely more recently, however, winning his last four games. Despite his struggles, Gillies continues to be one of the NCAA’s elite goaltenders.

The South Portland, ME native has appeared in 29 games to date, posting a 16-7-5 record that includes three shutouts. His 2.22 goals-against average and .927 save percentage both currently rank in the top 20 nationally. Gillies reached another milestone back on November 16th versus Vermont when he set a new Friars record by posting his eighth career shutout.

Gillies uses his large frame (6’5”, 215 lbs.) exceedingly well in playing his position. Gillies’ superb athleticism has been more evident this season as he has shown some added quickness and flexibility. His noticeably stronger legs allow him to move smoother and faster going post-to-post.

Gillies has all the makings of an NHL-level goaltender who will be a superb addition to the Calgary Flames down the road. The looming question isn’t if he’ll make it to the NHL, but when.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...a-goaltenders/