I had an interesting experience after my father died in 2000. When I visited mom and dad i'd sleep in the guest room in the basement. Dad would always come down and give the door a hard rap to check if I was still sleeping. Anyway the morning after the funeral I hear the same distinct sound. I got up to check and both my brother and sister will still sleeping, as well as my mother. It spooked me and I didn't give it much thought.
A week later I showed up to help mother deal with my fathers things. The next morning I hear that same distinct sound again. This time I saw my father standing there looking at me. It lasted about 5 seconds and then he was gone. After that I never heard that sound again. I have long suspect it was my father letting me know things are ok and he was happy to see I was helping mother take care of things.
I've had similar experiences. In the Mahayana Buddhism we pray for the dead for 49 days after passing away, 49 being the estimated time it takes for the spirit to be reborn again into a new life. So in ghost form, the recently deceased is floating around trying to figure out what's happened, and the family prays letting the spirit know that everything is ok and they can go off to reincarnate in peace.
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My dad passed away when I was 20 (8 years ago) from some complications with Diabetes (He was under 50 years old).
I don't know if this happened to anybody else, but the next night my dream felt so real. My dad came back home and ran towards my mom and I, hugged us, and asked if we were ok. I then asked what it was like now and he said it is ok up there, but there are too many celebrations going on....whatever that meant.
Never had a dream like that again int he next 8 years......
I don't know, I suspect nothing happens other than us returning to the dust from which we came from. But you never know, certainly nothing any religion or new agers have told us will happen.
I've always felt that anyone who claimns to know the afterlife is a liar, and that we'll all find out eventually so why worry about it.
Death has never concerned me, I don't know why, its nothing I fear or think about. Even after losing my mother, a best friend and too many other friends and relatives.
I remember reading this article with a hospice nurse who'd been at the job for 40 years in Holland, she spoke of how the non religious where the ones who seemed most at peace nearing death, while the very religious seemed to be the most frightened. You'd think that it would be the opposite, but I think religious people who believe in the afterlife, near the end worry if they'll make it in.
But like everyone else is saying, just enjoy this life; I hate the saying to its fullest. Because really who lives it to the fullest, just live a good life, have great friends, a love of your life or 10, and be as happy as you can be. Life isn't perfect but we are fortune to have been one of those millions of sperms that made it, while so many failed.
I believe there is a heaven...another dimension or reality that is as real as the existence we are all experiencing right now. The same Heaven that is constantly referred to in the bible...."on earth as it is in heaven"
One of my favorite quotes by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin:
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Of course just like everyone else I am scared of death because it is the great unknown. So I am interested to see what CP's thoughts are on what happens to you after death. What do you believe? Do we just dream forever or lie in eternal darkness? Is it a state that we cannot even fathom while we are alive?
I find it comforting to know that nothing happens... I die, and all the elements that made up my body will carry on in various forms. Eventually everything that makes all of us up, the computer I'm using the houses we live in, the headstones at our graves will end up part of our sun and be blasted out to become part of who knows what else...
I understand the concept of heaven as something that gives people peace when family and friends die, but I could never understand that as a place to work towards or a reward... "If I'm good i'll go to Heaven" kind of thing. I think if you are "good" you'll enjoy the time you have here not waste it waiting for some reward...
Living for Heaven to me, is like spending 50 years of overtime and no vacations with the family so you can save for retirement. Then on the day you retire you look around and your family hates your guts.....
Living for Heaven to me, is like spending 50 years of overtime and no vacations with the family so you can save for retirement. Then on the day you retire you look around and your family hates your guts.....
I guarantee with my luck I would drop dead on retirement day and my family would profit.
Knowing that there is a test and that there's someone administering the test doesn't remove your free will.
What's the point of having a test at all? Especially a contrived one.
It's more of a choice than a test. At the end of the day a sovereign God of righteousness is just and anything against that nature of His will be separated from Him for eternity.
Saying it's a contrived test is saying that God has no right to punish those who reject Him. He's God...He created everything...He has every right.
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That doesn't explain why knowing she exists leaves me with free will, while knowing God existed would remove my free will.
So? I know my parents created me, that doesn't remove my free will. It's just a fact.
Because that's a human example which is not parallel. If you saw God standing in front of you, you would then have to accept that a sovereign God exists. You are then saying that He created us and is over all, which then would stand to reason He did so for a reason and therefore we will be accountable to Him later on.
Seeing God standing in front of you certainly wouldn't remove your free will in that you could still choose to reject Him, but it would be pretty tough to do so knowing that He exists 100% and that rejection would come at a painful price. It's a lot easier to deny that he exists, therefore there is no accountability to a higher being. And since most of us haven't seen Him visually, that's the easier solution to take.
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Knowledge of God's existence wouldn't turn it into obligation, anymore than knowing my parents created me obligates me to follow them, or knowing Harper is the Prime Minister of my country obligates me to follow him.
I see what you're trying to say. I tried to explain above.
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You can't just say "God's a special case" without showing why God is a special case.
And I'll tell you what would obligate me.. knowledge that if I don't follow out of "love and faith" that I will be punished for eternity.
That's not obligation, it's still a choice. If I'm 14 and my parents warn me that if I come home drunk I will be grounded for a year, it doesn't obligate me to follow that rule. If I deem the price worth paying I can still go and get drunk.
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So basically what I said then, "might makes right" which is a moral failure.
So a creator creates a human, gives it free will, and then sets up a test that they will fail (and be punished for) if they choose something other than what the creator has pre-determined. Where's the free choice again?
The free choice is whether or not to pay the price to live the life we want, or to live the life God wants and get the subsequent reward. May not seem fair but we are the creation not the creator. We don't get to determine our own purpose and destiny - just whether or not to go along with God's or to face the consequences instead. That's why most deny God's existence in the first place - it allows us to be the god of our own life or choose any kind of god we wish to follow.
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So God doesn't reveal himself because it would violate free will, but he does reveal enough to convince some to acknowledge his existence, but that doesn't violate free will why?
Every other religion says the same thing, there's enough revelation and enough evidence to meet the salvation criteria, and I've seen nothing that gives one God any more merit than any other, so I would say no the conditions are not met.
Conditions being met or not is not a matter of opinion. Just because you think it isn't enough for you, doesn't make it so. According to God enough evidence has been given - if it doesn't satisfy your own criteria that's your fault not God's.
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Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Evidence shows us contrary. Intelligence would be able to do a MUCH better job.
I'm curious as to what kind of things "real intelligence" would have done differently? Not even as a religious discussion - just curious on a scientific level.
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No one claims it does.
No one attributes anything to science, science is a methodology, not a force.
Science explains how things happen. Science doesn't make the moon orbit the earth, science explains how that happens.
If science happens to explain something that was previous attributed to God, that's not science's fault. People used to think floods and lightning were divine in origin because they couldn't explain them, now we know better.
Not going to dive into this area with you as science is not an area of expertise for me but from thing's I've watched and read, there is plenty of evidence to suggest an intelligent creator. That being said, again I don't wish to go in this direction because you'll kill me - I admittedly know little about science.
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This is so old and tired, it's just a contrived attribution of motivation a believer will use to come up with why someone doesn't believe. It's offensive. "Non believers really do believe but they don't want to be accountable so they just say they don't believe God exists".
Sorry to have offended you; not my intent. Not saying that non-believers really do believe, just saying that it makes far more sense to deny the source than to acknowledge it but disregard it, from an atheists' perspective.
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Are you saying you don't believe in Allah, Vishnu, and Wotan because you don't want to be subject to them and just do whatever you want in life?
And no one attributes the entire world to random chance, that's such an overt misrepresentation of the non-believer's position it's poisoning the well.
Fair enough...I do hear it all the time though from atheists and agnostics.
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You realize this amounts to tautology right? There's nothing here except that "He's provided enough because he's provided enough".
I say he hasn't provided enough, in fact he's provided nothing. I've never been provided with anything unambiguous.
And that's ignoring the moral bankruptcy of the whole situation in the first place. In a multiple choice test, I have options A, B, and C, but if I choose anything other than B it's eternal punishment. Feel free to choose whatever you want.
That's not free will, that's coercion. That's like me going up to the girl I like and asking her to love me, she can if she wants, but if she doesn't I'll chain her in the basement.
Not true because you are not master of the girl. You did not create her nor are you sovereign over all. The invention doesn't get to tell the inventor that it is unhappy with its purpose. It's a hard teaching to accept but God is sovereign over all, and while He does give us free will to accept or reject Him there are also rewards/consequences in place as a result of that decision. That may seem unfair but only because we want to be god of our own lives.
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It's a life after death thread...ghosts (if they exist) are pretty much textbook life after death
FWIW I imagine death is a pretty under researched area by the 'top-tier' scientific community...I wonder what you could find out if you dropped some big $$$ into the field.
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It's a life after death thread...ghosts (if they exist) are pretty much textbook life after death
FWIW I imagine death is a pretty under researched area by the 'top-tier' scientific community...I wonder what you could find out if you dropped some big $$$ into the field.
You die, you decompose. I think science has a pretty good grasp on it.
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It's more of a choice than a test. At the end of the day a sovereign God of righteousness is just and anything against that nature of His will be separated from Him for eternity.
It doesn't have to be that way, God's the one that chose to create the whole setup the way he did in the first place. I'm completely incapable of flying by myself, but I still have free will. If God wanted free will beings that couldn't do things that weren't righteous he could have created them that way in the first place (being omnipotent and all).
Instead everyone is unrighteous because they were created that way (or inherited it, depending on your doctrines) and then are held accountable for that. Should kids go to jail for the crimes of their parents, is that moral?
Let me ask you this, if you were in the garden of Eden, would you have chosen to sin? Would everyone?
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
Saying it's a contrived test is saying that God has no right to punish those who reject Him. He's God...He created everything...He has every right.
Does a parent have the same rights over their child? Saying God gets the right to torment and destroy people, to do things that we would never condone if they were done by another person, just because he created us.. well that's a bit disturbing. That's not justice or fairness, that's just exerting power.
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
You are then saying that He created us and is over all, which then would stand to reason He did so for a reason and therefore we will be accountable to Him later on.
Assuming that we are accountable then using that to show why free will would be violated if God revealed himself fully doesn't work unless accountability can be shown.. independently.
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
Seeing God standing in front of you certainly wouldn't remove your free will in that you could still choose to reject Him, but it would be pretty tough to do so knowing that He exists 100% and that rejection would come at a painful price. It's a lot easier to deny that he exists, therefore there is no accountability to a higher being. And since most of us haven't seen Him visually, that's the easier solution to take.
How many atheists or believers in other things that the God of the Bible think this here? Does anyone actually not believe just because it's easier?
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
May not seem fair but we are the creation not the creator. We don't get to determine our own purpose and destiny - just whether or not to go along with God's or to face the consequences instead.
I understand the premise, it's just irrational and immoral. So either God is just and moral and this is a flawed view of God, or God really is this way and is petty and hurtful and unworthy.
Or the third option which I think, which is the Bible is a book written by a lot of different people on their views of God. Inspired by the idea of God, but not inspired by God, and incapable of being an accurate portrayal of God.
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
That's why most deny God's existence in the first place - it allows us to be the god of our own life or choose any kind of god we wish to follow.
Still this canard... people don't believe in God because the sum total of their experiences and knowledge doesn't allow them to.
Believe is not a choice, it is a result. Try as hard as I may, I can never believe the earth is flat.
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
Conditions being met or not is not a matter of opinion. Just because you think it isn't enough for you, doesn't make it so.
It does, because I'm the one arriving at the conclusion. If I have pursued it to the best of my ability, given it decades of serious thought and research and engagement, and come to the honest conclusion that I've been given zero reason to believe, how can it be otherwise?
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
According to God enough evidence has been given - if it doesn't satisfy your own criteria that's your fault not God's.
There's enough evidence to believe in God because God says there's enough evidence to believe in God... circular reasoning is circular.
My criteria come from the brain that God gave me, the rules of logic that are derived from the universe he purportedly created, learning from the people in authority that God has placed in my life. That's all one can do since the criteria aren't unambiguously given.
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
I'm curious as to what kind of things "real intelligence" would have done differently? Not even as a religious discussion - just curious on a scientific level.
The universe is pretty much designed to kill you, if one looks at the "design" of the universe, the best you could say was that it was designed to make black holes. That we happen to eek out a meager existence in a tiny fragile ecosystem isn't evidence of design.
The biology of animals are rife with hacks, inefficiencies, and poor design choices. Everything points towards a gradual development based on previous structures, co-opting old things to do new jobs, development quirks that derive from the structure of ancestral forms, that sort of thing. Things only look clean and perfectly designed from a superficial level.
Not going to dive into this area with you as science is not an area of expertise for me but from thing's I've watched and read, there is plenty of evidence to suggest an intelligent creator. That being said, again I don't wish to go in this direction because you'll kill me - I admittedly know little about science.
Doesn't it seem a bit odd though that you accept the word of people telling you there's evidence to suggest an intelligent creator, but then admit it's not an area of expertise and don't want to engage? I think you'd be better served by taking a position of reserving judgment until you did know more.
Because I will say that most of those who say there is plenty of evidence don't actually provide that evidence, and the few that do try haven't actually provided anything like real evidence.
BTW I appreciate you being up front with not wanting to engage in that area, I understand that it's not always the best time to go into things or just wanting to leave stuff alone, that's far more honest than most I speak with, who just ignore the whole issue.
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
Sorry to have offended you; not my intent. Not saying that non-believers really do believe, just saying that it makes far more sense to deny the source than to acknowledge it but disregard it, from an atheists' perspective.
You're still doing it I know it's not intentional, but you are wrong.. it doesn't make more sense to deny based on that.. it makes more sense to deny because there's no reason to accept.
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Originally Posted by arloiginla
Not true because you are not master of the girl. You did not create her nor are you sovereign over all. The invention doesn't get to tell the inventor that it is unhappy with its purpose. It's a hard teaching to accept but God is sovereign over all, and while He does give us free will to accept or reject Him there are also rewards/consequences in place as a result of that decision. That may seem unfair but only because we want to be god of our own lives.
I purchased the girl from her father, so I am her master.
It doesn't have to be that way, God's the one that chose to create the whole setup the way he did in the first place. I'm completely incapable of flying by myself, but I still have free will. If God wanted free will beings that couldn't do things that weren't righteous he could have created them that way in the first place (being omnipotent and all).
Instead everyone is unrighteous because they were created that way (or inherited it, depending on your doctrines) and then are held accountable for that. Should kids go to jail for the crimes of their parents, is that moral?
We as humans didn't inherit a particular "sin" after Adam and Eve, we instead inherited a sinful nature. That is, the natural inclination to do evil. Your comparison to kids going to jail for their parents crimes is an improper parallel.
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Let me ask you this, if you were in the garden of Eden, would you have chosen to sin? Would everyone?
To be honest I have no idea. In Adam's state I would have been naturally good instead of evil so it's impossible to even hypothetically know that. I hope I wouldn't have chosen what Adam and Eve did...but who knows.
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Does a parent have the same rights over their child? Saying God gets the right to torment and destroy people, to do things that we would never condone if they were done by another person, just because he created us.. well that's a bit disturbing. That's not justice or fairness, that's just exerting power.
But He isn't tormenting and destroying people, nor could He for it is against His very nature. The place we refer to as hell is not God tormenting us, it's the devil tormenting us after we chose him over God. God simply separates us from Him for eternity, which was actually our choice not His. The pain and the suffering in hell is thanks to the devil.
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Assuming that we are accountable then using that to show why free will would be violated if God revealed himself fully doesn't work unless accountability can be shown.. independently.
As I previously mentioned, a fully revealed God wouldn't remove our free will per se, but it would make it a lot ballsier to fly in the face of something that is right in front of our faces visually, in an absolute sense. That would be like me standing in front of you and you still believing I didn't exist. On the other hand, even though I am communicating with you online, you still believe I exist even though you haven't seen me. You can't see the wind either - but you know it is there.
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How many atheists or believers in other things that the God of the Bible think this here? Does anyone actually not believe just because it's easier?
I understand the premise, it's just irrational and immoral. So either God is just and moral and this is a flawed view of God, or God really is this way and is petty and hurtful and unworthy.
In your opinion. There's nothing unjust about being perfect in every sense, and desiring the same from your people, and offering them that opportunity through Jesus Christ. If those people choose to reject that offer, they spend eternity apart from Him. What's petty and hurtful about that? That's YOUR choice to make. Don't blame God.
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Or the third option which I think, which is the Bible is a book written by a lot of different people on their views of God. Inspired by the idea of God, but not inspired by God, and incapable of being an accurate portrayal of God.
Why is the Bible incapable of being an accurate portrayal of God?
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Still this canard... people don't believe in God because the sum total of their experiences and knowledge doesn't allow them to.
Believe is not a choice, it is a result. Try as hard as I may, I can never believe the earth is flat.
Incorrect parallel. You are confusing belief with reality, or truth. You believe the earth is round because it is so. That's like saying you believe the Flames missed the playoffs last year. They did. That's not a belief that's fact. Belief that the Flames will make the playoffs this year - now that involves some things that the team has revealed to you (ie a winning streak) and a little bit of faith.
Experience is a fact - they are things that happen. What we choose to do with that experience is our choice. God has given us His written word, as well as His creation and hopefully we see glimpses of Him in some of His people as well - though organized religion has admittedly done more harm than good in some ways.
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It does, because I'm the one arriving at the conclusion. If I have pursued it to the best of my ability, given it decades of serious thought and research and engagement, and come to the honest conclusion that I've been given zero reason to believe, how can it be otherwise?
You haven't been given zero reason to believe. You have just decided that there isn't enough reason to suit you, and are unwilling to step out in a bit of faith and allow God to reveal other things to you. The Bible mentions having the faith of a child - like a little child on a diving board with his mom in the water waiting to catch him. The little child hasn't been around enough to have much knowledge and research but he does trust his authority figure enough to jump. God is an authority figure over us but the difference is we have the freedom to go against it anytime we wish. He reveals enough that "men will be without excuse."
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There's enough evidence to believe in God because God says there's enough evidence to believe in God... circular reasoning is circular.
Again, evidence is around us. It's in the order of the universe, in the DNA that comprises us. Because science has shown us how these things work, we then feel that gives us license to discredit where it came from.
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My criteria come from the brain that God gave me, the rules of logic that are derived from the universe he purportedly created, learning from the people in authority that God has placed in my life. That's all one can do since the criteria aren't unambiguously given.
The universe is pretty much designed to kill you, if one looks at the "design" of the universe, the best you could say was that it was designed to make black holes. That we happen to eek out a meager existence in a tiny fragile ecosystem isn't evidence of design.
The biology of animals are rife with hacks, inefficiencies, and poor design choices. Everything points towards a gradual development based on previous structures, co-opting old things to do new jobs, development quirks that derive from the structure of ancestral forms, that sort of thing. Things only look clean and perfectly designed from a superficial level.
Doesn't it seem a bit odd though that you accept the word of people telling you there's evidence to suggest an intelligent creator, but then admit it's not an area of expertise and don't want to engage? I think you'd be better served by taking a position of reserving judgment until you did know more.
I've seen lots of evidence being given, but if it doesn't align with atheists worldviews they just say its not "real evidence." I've seen that argument before and it just goes in circles. That's why I'm not even going there.
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Because I will say that most of those who say there is plenty of evidence don't actually provide that evidence, and the few that do try haven't actually provided anything like real evidence.
BTW I appreciate you being up front with not wanting to engage in that area, I understand that it's not always the best time to go into things or just wanting to leave stuff alone, that's far more honest than most I speak with, who just ignore the whole issue.
You're still doing it I know it's not intentional, but you are wrong.. it doesn't make more sense to deny based on that.. it makes more sense to deny because there's no reason to accept.
I found reason to accept and I find that those reasons multiply and solidify themselves all the time as I search God and strive to learn more about Him. At the end of the day I'll always have my personal testimony as to my search for the Truth and that I've found it, but I'm 100% positive you don't want to hear stuff like that.
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I purchased the girl from her father, so I am her master.
You're still a human as she is. God didn't have to purchase us, He made us. Big difference and one on a level you can't really comprehend if you believe there is no higher power. No human being can be a master over anything in the same way God is sovereign over all. His sovereignty has no limits. That's tough to wrap a brain around admittedly.
Last edited by arloiginla; 03-15-2011 at 10:36 PM.
I know it's not intentional, but you are wrong.. it doesn't make more sense to deny based on that.. it makes more sense to deny because there's no reason to accept.