Given we don't have a functioning submarine fleet would we better off not throwing good money after bad and just retiring them? Start again with new subs, accept a gap in the timeline. How critical is this capability?
The capability is critical depending on who you ask.
The onus is on the Government to define the mission of the Canadian Armed Forces. Until that is done, it is difficult to plan equipment procurement.
To me, it is very straight forward: the priority of the CAF is to defend Canada. There isn't any threat to Canada from a land invasion. Thus, the defence of Canada is for the Navy and Air Force. However, the current and past government's priority seems to be to project power overseas. But, we can't even do that effectively without significantly improving our Air Force heavy lift capability.
If the Government wishes to continue trumpeting the importance of Arctic sovereignty, then they had better beef up the Navy. Part of that includes a submarine force that can patrol the Arctic.
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"If you do not know what you are doing, neither does your enemy."
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We actually used to do that, and it wasn't limited to tents. We used local procurement to buy heaters, generators, you name it. Several problems result: you get all of these "orphans" and when they break, the "system" won't repair them or give you a new one. Many locally procured heaters weren't even CSA approved.
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"If you do not know what you are doing, neither does your enemy."
- - Joe Tzu
We actually used to do that, and it wasn't limited to tents. We used local procurement to buy heaters, generators, you name it. Several problems result: you get all of these "orphans" and when they break, the "system" won't repair them or give you a new one. Many locally procured heaters weren't even CSA approved.
Heaters?, why in my day we just put 8 men in a 5 man tent.
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Perhaps, with our limited budget and large coastline we should focus on surface ships that can double for Search and Rescue as well. Let's not even bring up the Coast Guard....
I would disagree, from a naval perspective a submarine with a well trained crew and proper capabilities is far more effective then a frigate or a destroyer in terms of projecting real and imagined power and intelligence gathering.
Just to put in perspective, you look at an American Naval taskforce of a aircraft carrier or troop transports surrounded by a mix of anti-air, anti submarine platforms. A submarine is still a much bigger threat then a air threat and a task forces ability to provide a bubble of interdiction is under greater threat from a single submarine then lets say two regiments of Russian Naval aviation carrying hundreds of anti ship missiles.
Resupply convoys are also under greater threats from submarines then aircraft in the modern day naval battlefield.
In terms of efficiency of deployment. A submarine can get fairly close to a coast line and deploy special forces units, or land attack missiles easier then a surface ship.
In terms of intelligence gathering its fairly equivalent in terms of actual gathering, however a frigate or destroyer isn't going to sneak up on anyone and survey them, most task forces use submarines as their pickets to locate where the enemy is.
In terms of arctic sovereignty beyond the whole iced in concept, even the threat of a submarine in the area will give any enemy commander pause.
There's a rumor that the American's used to let slip intelligence that a sub had been deployed to the Sea of Japan or even into Russian waters because of the effect of a submarine on the correlation of forces, and half the time there wasn't even a submarine there.
Just my 2 cents.
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More submarines than the West Edmonton Mall
For years, the go-to slam against the Royal Canadian Navy was to say that it had fewer submarines than the West Edmonton Mall, which had an attraction of small submarines leading visitors on an underwater tour of an artificial lake. But those were dismantled in 2012, and Canada has since gotten its own subs to float properly (or dive properly, whichever). However, Edmonton still doesn’t have to rent its oilers from Chile.
They should try it though, it cant be worse than the Oilers they've currently got.
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Lots of news starting today covering the efforts to retake Mosul from ISIS. Globe & Mail has published an interesting (to me) summary of what our own Canadian troops are doing to contribute:
Quote:
Up to 210 Canadian special forces troops are advising Kurdish peshmerga fighters who are teaming up with Iraqi government forces, Sunni tribal fighters and Shia militias to encircle and take Mosul. The Trudeau government, which promised in the 2015 election campaign to end a combat role in Iraq, insists what soldiers are doing there is not combat even though Canadian special forces soldiers are guiding the Kurds from the front lines and exchanging fire with enemy troops from time to time.
Overhead, two Canadian spy planes, the CP-140 Auroras, are gathering intelligence that will be used by coalition planners to generate lists of Islamic State targets to be bombed. As well, the Royal Canadian Air Force’s Polaris tanker is refuelling coalition warplanes conducting the bombing raids.
Not far from the front line – but not so close as to be in harm’s way – up to 60 Canadians will be operating a field hospital to treat the wounded Kurds, Iraqi government forces or their allies. The Role 2 facility will not be big but will triage, resuscitate, treat and care for injured soldiers until they return to duty or are evacuated.
I usually roll my eyes at "Thoughts & Prayers" posts, but this will be a long, bloody battle, and as the periodic updates roll out, I'll be hoping the brave Canadians taking part are all OK.
Last edited by Mike F; 10-17-2016 at 10:38 PM.
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I have my doubts that any special forces troops are sitting inside of the wire merely teaching drills and tactics. that's not how special forces training works nor how special training advisory works.
Its funny because when JTF-2 was founded all information about it and its operations were highly classified and not disclosed by the government at all.
When JTF-2 started becoming highly respected in the special forces community and because it was a replacement for our airborne regiment which was disbanded in scandal our government couldn't help but make them the poster boy of the armed forces, but they were still tight lipped about their deployments and operational status.
I would expect that there are going to be Canadian casualties in this fight, this is going to be a nasty fight against a brutal enemy that is rapidly being cornered and knows that they can't surrender.
I expect that Canadian troops right now are patrolling, gathering intelligence and coordinating air strikes as well as killing ISIS members.
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I saw some footage from earlier today (on CNN) and one of these nuts literally popped out of a hole in the ground and shot a Kurdish soldier and then blew himself to pieces.
I'm sure the Canadians over there are the toughest guys going, but it's gotta be pretty scary.
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I saw some footage from earlier today (on CNN) and one of these nuts literally popped out of a hole in the ground and shot a Kurdish soldier and then blew himself to pieces.
I'm sure the Canadians over there are the toughest guys going, but it's gotta be pretty scary.
This will be bloody because ISIS fighters are more then willing to die for their cause. And they want maximum carnage, both to civilians and soldiers alike.
I watched a video of massive car bombs being driven at troop positions. One took three rocket hits and went off like a freaking 10,000 pound bomb.
Hopefully they're careful but not cautious.
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Part of me wonders whether they will encounter serious fighting or something similar to Iraq with spotty fighting in the streets and ISIS assimilating into the general public to later show up wearing bombs and detonating in public places?
Part of me wonders whether they will encounter serious fighting or something similar to Iraq with spotty fighting in the streets and ISIS assimilating into the general public to later show up wearing bombs and detonating in public places?
I tend to think both.
Remember that the idea of ISIS basic training and dicipline is to give a person a rifle and point them down the road and tell them that if they don't go and kill infidels that they'll kill them in a gruesome fashion.
As well they have idiots that are more then willing to strap on a bomb vest.
So I think you'll see something combined. But you'll also see lots of snipers and people disguised as civilians.
ISIS wanted an apocalyptic war against the Western Powers on their soil. This is the closest they're going to get so they'll fight hard.
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From what I read, I didn't think Kurdish Peshmerga we're actually going to be entering the city. Only Iraqi army. It is dangerous for Canadians on the ground, but far less dangerous than those having to fight within the city. Nonetheless, I laugh at the shade the liberals pulled over the head of Canadians by promising to exit our jets all the while increasing the number of boots on the ground directly putting a lot more Canadians in harms way.
This is a video from Ukraine showing Canadian trainers and the "proxy war" being fought in that country.
I have my doubts that the Kurds will be on the sidelines for the final battle with ISIS/ISIL.
Its really easy to mislead people in terms of military deployment because they don't really understand the terminology and methods of it.
Saying that we're out of harms way because we're training and not fighting creates this picture in peoples minds of Canadians in clean fatigues doing drill instruction, class room sessions and marching people off the the range.
We aren't running BMT cadres over there, we're trying to pass on tactical and special forces experience and trying to professionalize irregulars. Which means going on patrols and on intelligence gathering missions, which means setting up outposts and teaching them to defend them.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
From what I read, I didn't think Kurdish Peshmerga we're actually going to be entering the city. Only Iraqi army. It is dangerous for Canadians on the ground, but far less dangerous than those having to fight within the city. Nonetheless, I laugh at the shade the liberals pulled over the head of Canadians by promising to exit our jets all the while increasing the number of boots on the ground directly putting a lot more Canadians in harms way.
This is a video from Ukraine showing Canadian trainers and the "proxy war" being fought in that country.
Thanks for posting that, I am going to sit down and watch it.
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
From what I read, I didn't think Kurdish Peshmerga we're actually going to be entering the city. Only Iraqi army. It is dangerous for Canadians on the ground, but far less dangerous than those having to fight within the city. Nonetheless, I laugh at the shade the liberals pulled over the head of Canadians by promising to exit our jets all the while increasing the number of boots on the ground directly putting a lot more Canadians in harms way.
The Liberals never said that they weren't going to put Canadians in harms way. They said they wanted to end air strikes and focus in areas where our expertise is more applicable, like training and policing.
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Boeing recently sold 40 Superhornets to the Kuwaiti's at $335 million per plane which means the Liberal estimate of $65 million a plane was probably our defense minister talking out of his a$$.
While straight comparisons are never easy in military procurement, Kuwait’s recent purchase of 40 Super Hornets for $13.5-billion raises questions about Canada’s ability to meet its own financial targets for new fighter jets.
he deal means Kuwait will be paying an average of $335-million per aircraft, a price that includes training, spare parts and engines, weaponry and logistical support.During the 2015 election campaign, the Liberals said they could acquire their own fleet of Super Hornets at a flyaway price (which does not include training or spare parts) of $65-million per unit; by way of comparison, the Liberals said the Lockheed Martin F-35, which had been favoured by the Conservatives, had a flyaway price of $175-million per aircraft.
There will be pressure on Canada to increase their military spending as well as Trump has commented negatively on NATO allies who aren't pulling their weight spending wise
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