And neither here nor there but since we are talking rankings, I love RotJ. It is amazing. Ewoks and all. The Luke/Vader confrontation in front of the emperor is some of the best scenes in the whole trilogy.
My only complaint lore wise was Snoke was unexplained. That was lazy and made his death less satisfying.
Did we really need his back story though? Going back to the original trilogy, the Emperor's story was a complete mystery up until Lucas made the prequels. I know there were novels that probably explored his story during the years between the two movie trilogies (I never read them), but if we're strictly talking about the original films, not much was ever revealed about who this dude was. The focus of the story was always about Vader and Luke, and the Emperor's back story didn't really matter. I think that's kind of what they're going for with this new trilogy. Kylo Ren is being set up as the ultimate baddie, and him killing Snoke was the final step for him to fully succumb to the dark side. In that way it kind of mirrors ROTJ:
Quote:
"Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete."
My guess is that Snoke had already foreseen that Kylo might kill him, and that he purposely allowed it to happen in order to prevent Rey from pulling Kylo back to the light. Just a theory.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how Abrams wraps it all up in episode IX. I can't imagine the insane amount of pressure that a director/writer must feel when making one of these movies. It really is a no win situation, as it's impossible to please everyone and no matter how you approach the story, you'll still be scrutinized by a large swath of the fan base.
Did we really need his back story though? Going back to the original trilogy, the Emperor's story was a complete mystery up until Lucas made the prequels. I know there were novels that probably explored his story during the years between the two movie trilogies (I never read them), but if we're strictly talking about the original films, not much was ever revealed about who this dude was. The focus of the story was always about Vader and Luke, and the Emperor's back story didn't really matter. I think that's kind of what they're going for with this new trilogy. Kylo Ren is being set up as the ultimate baddie, and him killing Snoke was the final step for him to fully succumb to the dark side. In that way it kind of mirrors ROTJ:
My guess is that Snoke had already foreseen that Kylo might kill him, and that he purposely allowed it to happen in order to prevent Rey from pulling Kylo back to the light. Just a theory.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how Abrams wraps it all up in episode IX. I can't imagine the insane amount of pressure that a director/writer must feel when making one of these movies. It really is a no win situation, as it's impossible to please everyone and no matter how you approach the story, you'll still be scrutinized by a large swath of the fan base.
Palpatine's background was built through 6 movies. Yes, we only had episodes 4-6 for a while, but we knew he had SOME sort of history prior to the events of episode 4. Hell, it was called episode 4. We knew we weren't being given the whole story.
Snoke apparently wasn't in any prior movies. He's doing some of the most powerful #### we've ever seen with the force, he's throwing Rey around like a ragdoll, extracting Luke's location from her mind... where did he come from? How is he doing all this?
This may not matter to a lot of people, and maybe this is their new theme that power can rise from nothing - but it's just not entertaining from a fan perspective. It's boring - I have no interest in episode 9 now because nothing really matters in the end.
And it's not like we haven't seen that story before either. Anakin came from nowhere - he didn't even have a father. But that's what Star Wars quickly became about - a family drama set in space.
Literally anything else would have been better than what they did with Snoke. Episode 7 set this up so easily, and not a single writer or director in Hollywood could think of a fun way to twist this series while also giving some of the more hardcore fans some service here? It just feels very cheap and inconsequential that it doesn't fit in with the series.
Instead of spending more time on this really interesting storyline, the writers instead decided to focus on Rose and Finn (and I really like Finn's character) that proved to be a dead end that could have been prevented if Admiral Holdo had just told Poe her plan.
This comment I found on a YT review explains it pretty well:
Quote:
But the thing is...the emperor was the emperor. His position is established, his motivation is established (a guy who wants to kill the people messing with his empire), his purpose is made clear (he wants to see his rebuilt Death Star in action while getting front row seats to his evil plans), and he is told to be the one who corrupted Vader, which points to him being the greater evil.
Now compare this to Snoke, who apparently created the First Order but we're never given an explanation as to WHAT the First Order even is in any way, shape, or form. The Empire in the OT was the main galaxy-wide antagonistic force with immense power and resources because it's a galactic empire. The First Order? No, seriously, what even is the First Order supposed to be other than the directors being too lazy to think of new villains so they reused the Imperial Army assets? I've been dying to find this out only to be given nothing...again.
Because what did Snoke do, anyways? He sits his ass on a chair, giving orders to kill #### for an unexplained reason with no hints or logical basis. The Emperor needed to wipe out the Rebels because they're rebelling against his galaxy-wide government, causing chaos in his bubble of power that he can't tolerate because that puts his empire in danger. Why is Snoke hell-bent on destroying the New Republic? He's a literal nobody who amassed an army of reused assets whose just attacking for the sake of it since there's no logical basis. He's not trying to protect his assets like the Emperor did; he's just attacking to...idk, conquer territory? Why then? Not even the prequel villains were this shoehorned in, which is saying quite a ####ing lot when considering how Dooku and Grievous needed follow-up stories in books, TV show, and comics shortly after their debut to explain their existences, whilst Snoke got nothing even after TFA.
Snoke is never given a "Why?" to his actions in any way. Is he just a dick? Is he trying to revive the Empire? Is he trying to scour the galaxy for a miracle cure for his play-dough morphed Gollum features? The Emperor didn't need much backstory because it was his job to put down the Rebels as the ruler of the galaxy. He was doing his job. Snoke needed something, anything, to explain who or what he is but wasn't given that.
Palpatine's background was built through 6 movies. Yes, we only had episodes 4-6 for a while, but we knew he had SOME sort of history prior to the events of episode 4. Hell, it was called episode 4. We knew we weren't being given the whole story.
Good point. I think there's still a strong possibility that some of his back story will be revealed in episode IX.
Actually Star Wars was retroactively called episode IV.
You may have known but audiences originally didn’t. It wasn’t until Empire did the episode V part get included.
And even then, audiences were never given background on the emperor.
We don’t need an explanation. We already know how the force works. And what we don’t know we are learning.
You think audiences were up in arms the first time Vader force choked a guy or the emperor shot lightning from his fingers and were like “why hasn’t this been previously explained?” Yeah that’s a no.
The emperor had like 20minutes of screen time in the whole trilogy and none of his background was explained at all and he did #### we’d never seen before. Hell, we’ve only ever seen like 5 Jedi or Sith in 5 movies. How can anyone say they’re upset that Snoke did things others can’t? Everything every force user does is basically new to us.
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 12-17-2017 at 04:57 PM.
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Who the Emperor wasn't didn't need to be explained. He was the physical embodiment of the powerful and evil Empire. He was the leader of the group that built a weapon to destroy planets. Vader bends his knee to him. In a galaxy where 'The Empire' rules all, the leader is obviously the most powerful person. You don't need anymore than that. As I mentioned earlier, it is a trope. But it's really only one you get to use once in a timeline.
Snoke matters simply because in order for him to exist in the universe we've been presented on the timeline it is on, is that he was an exceptionally powerful dark force user who operated hidden away from the Emperor and Vader, who was able to rebuild an Empire-like group in a relatively short amount of time. That's a character that deserves at least some explanation.
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The emperor had like 20minutes of screen time in the whole trilogy and none of his background was explained at all and he did #### we’d never seen before. Hell, we’ve only ever seen like 5 Jedi or Sith in 5 movies. How can anyone say they’re upset that Snoke did things others can’t? Everything every force user does is basically new to us.
The first time Vader force choked somebody in the very first Episode of the series? You don't know why people weren't upset with that when now, 8 movies later, in a series rife with history and lore, that fans are questioning the laws of this universe looking for answers?
We don’t know he wasn’t known to the emperor. Or maybe he only emerged after the emperor because he was in hiding.
And he had like 40 years to build his empire. That’s plenty of time.
The fact Snoke wasn’t mentioned in the original movies doesn’t mean he didn’t exist or wasn’t important. He just wasn’t important in those specific movies.
It’s like asking why Obi Wan didn’t immediately go ask Yoda for help in IV.
We don’t know he wasn’t known to the emperor. Or maybe he only emerged after the emperor because he was in hiding.
And he had like 40 years to build his empire. That’s plenty of time.
The fact Snoke wasn’t mentioned in the original movies doesn’t mean he didn’t exist or wasn’t important. He just wasn’t important in those specific movies.
It’s like asking why Obi Wan didn’t immediately go ask Yoda for help in IV.
So then let's explain that in this movie. That's what many people (including myself) were most interested in learning about with this episode.
We got nothing. We got less than nothing.
Star Wars has always been about twists and unexpected reveals - and we get the two most anticlimactic reveals I've seen in the history of cinema in a single movie? Are you kidding?
They couldn't have given us just one of these things to hold on to, to talk about? Why should fans even care anymore?
The first time Vader force choked somebody in the very first Episode of the series? You don't know why people weren't upset with that when now, 8 movies later, in a series rife with history and lore, that fans are questioning the laws of this universe looking for answers?
That’s right. People are taking this way too seriously.
You need to rethink this as if there’s only 4 preceding movies. Not counting rogue one because it didn’t feature any force users except as a cameo.
Tell me how anything that happened in this movie isn’t consistent with episodes 4-7. Literally nothing.
Just because it wasn’t explicitly explained doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Especially not when we saw similar stuff in the previous movies. Reading feelings, controlling minds, lifting people, shooting lightning, controlling objects, sensing other force users, disappearing into a force ghost upon death were all already seen.
So what’s new in this movie exactly? Force projection? Seems in line with previous stuff we saw when you consider Luke is now a Jedi master. Reading minds? Already been shown not everyone can do it. Maybe Snoke read a different Sith book than Vader and the Emperor did. We know they learn from texts and passing of knowledge. Maybe Snoke had a better/different master than Emperor did.
And Star Wars has never been known for twists. It had one and people are projecting that to mean every movie needs one.
Neither of the lack of reveals were important because the filmmakers never framed them to be important. It’s people making #### up that are disappointed. The movies never even hinted that you should expect a twist or big reveal.
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 12-17-2017 at 05:11 PM.
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The one complaint I keep hearing that I don't understand is Snoke being a nobody. One of the friends I went to see TLJ with made this complaint and even said the film made a huge misstep by not answering questions like who this guy was and where he came from. I responded with who cares? He isn't important just like the Emperor wasn't important.
I think these people are maybe forgetting that Emperor Palpatine was a nobody as well in the original trilogy. His backstory was never explored and he didn't exactly have a lot screen time (less than 15 min over 2 movies). He showed up briefly as a hologram in Empire and his scenes in RotJ consist of him mostly sitting in a chair tempting Luke to the dark side. The Emperor was never even referred to as Palpatine on screen during the OT.
Seriously, watch this compilation of all of Palpatine's scenes starting around the 52 minute mark.
Who this big bad villain is or was isn't important to these stories. I didn't fall in love with Star Wars because I knew that Palpatine was a Republic Senator who wormed his way through the ranks until he was able to overthrow said Republic.
Just because it wasn’t explicitly explained doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Especially not when we saw similar stuff in the previous movies. Reading feelings, controlling minds, lifting people, shooting lightning, controlling objects, sensing other force users, disappearing into a force ghost upon death were all already seen.
I can agree with this, but that's exactly my problem. This is super cheap and lazy writing because this is what so many people were interested in. Yeah you can say that it doesn't mean things aren't happening - but why not explain the most interesting character introduced in this new trilogy to the audience? What does it add to this series from withholding this information? Just let the fans theorize or read additional crappy novels that may or may not be cannon in the future?
I had more fun watching theories of who Snoke and Rey were on Youtube than I had with this movie. Don't end Episode 7 withholding this information, setting up Episode 8 like they are going to be a giant reveal, and then do this. That's an insult to the fans.
So what’s new in this movie exactly? Force projection? Seems in line with previous stuff we saw when you consider Luke is now a Jedi master. Reading minds? Already been shown not everyone can do it. Maybe Snoke read a different Sith book than Vader and the Emperor did. We know they learn from texts and passing of knowledge. Maybe Snoke had a better/different master than Emperor did.
Pretty sure the Rule of Two is canon, so this doesn't fly. Which would mean Snoke wouldn't be a Sith, which in itself is noteworthy enough to be a bigger deal than just a throwaway villain puppetmaster.
Pretty sure the Rule of Two is canon, so this doesn't fly. Which would mean Snoke wouldn't be a Sith, which in itself is noteworthy enough to be a bigger deal than just a throwaway villain puppetmaster.
Ok so even if the rule of two is canon, which is dumb but whatever, so what?
That means nothing in relation to Snoke and his background explanation. Nor does it mean they even followed the rule of two if it does exist.
You think Snoke is the most interesting character. There should be like 5 people ahead of him.
And if the filmmakers failed to impress you with the other characters either that’s on them or you just have way different tastes than other people.
I personally like BB8 better than Snoke so I don’t care he’s no one. Rey/fin/Poe/Kylo are all better too.
You are misunderstanding me. In the end I agree that Snoke absolutely was a boring throwaway. That's the problem.
We see this mysterious and insidious character rise from the ashes of the Empire and exhibit some of the most powerful usages of the force we've seen. In the first movie, we were wondering if he was just a puppet master and if he even had force powers. 15 minutes into this movie you see him throw Hux across the bridge from who knows how far away. We see him now as more than just a manipulator, but a powerful force wielder.
And then he's dead. He's a throwaway. The writers have determined that his background is not important to this trilogy. Kylo Ren is the main bad guy now, even though he's still at odds with the dark side.
He should have been interesting, but apparently he's not.
You think Snoke is the most interesting character. There should be like 5 people ahead of him.
Except given the implications Snoke IS the most interesting character, we just weren't told anything about him.
His age suggests he could go back to at least the prequel era. In a time when you couldn't have more than Two Sith he was a powerful dark force user who hid himself from Sidious and, presumably Palageius, two of the most powerful dark force users ever. Then stayed under the radar as a power-hungry dark force user all during the Emperor's reign, just waiting for the right time to rise up. This guy IS interesting. And Kylo getting the upper-hand on him would instantly make his feat even more interesting.
But nope. Just a bad guy. Move this plot along quickly, we've got a franchise to milk.
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The one complaint I keep hearing that I don't understand is Snoke being a nobody. One of the friends I went to see TLJ with made this complaint and even said the film made a huge misstep by not answering questions like who this guy was and where he came from. I responded with who cares? He isn't important just like the Emperor wasn't important.
I think these people are maybe forgetting that Emperor Palpatine was a nobody as well in the original trilogy. His backstory was never explored and he didn't exactly have a lot screen time (less than 15 min over 2 movies). He showed up briefly as a hologram in Empire and his scenes in RotJ consist of him mostly sitting in a chair tempting Luke to the dark side. The Emperor was never even referred to as Palpatine on screen during the OT.
Seriously, watch this compilation of all of Palpatine's scenes starting around the 52 minute mark.
Who this big bad villain is or was isn't important to these stories. I didn't fall in love with Star Wars because I knew that Palpatine was a Republic Senator who wormed his way through the ranks until he was able to overthrow said Republic.
This is already been answered when you insert a character into an existing universe and intentionally don't reveal his origins, make it clear he had relations with the main characters family, and then kill him without answering questions.
Even a flashback sequence to Luke's Acadamy with Snoke and Ren would have been enough to add depth. It's important because you are asking us to accept that this person converted Ben Solo to the dark side
I’m not misunderstanding you. That’s exactly what I said.
If you feel that way then either the filmmakers failed or you want different movies than the rest of us and aren’t really digging the main story.
Snoke was never meant to be as fascinating as you find him. Like a lot of people I think wild internet theories may have influenced your expectations and you’ve overlooked what actually was portrayed in the movies.
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I’m not misunderstanding you. That’s exactly what I said.
If you feel that way then either the filmmakers failed or you want different movies than the rest of us and aren’t really digging the main story.
Snoke was never meant to be as fascinating as you find him. Like a lot of people I think wild internet theories may have influenced your expectations and you’ve overlooked what actually was portrayed in the movies.
Then they shouldn't plant seeds of interest in Episode 7 when describing Snoke turning Kylo, flashbacks of Rey being dropped off at Jakku, if none of this matters. Snoke explaining that he needs to complete Kylo's training - what did he teach him?
If it's just good versus evil, red versus blue, then I suppose this is my end with this franchise.
