Do you think this team's core has Stanley Cup potential?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I don't think we do unless one of Bennett or Jankowski puts up a consistent 70 points a year. I think this team is just starved for playoff offence (ie. Something that gaudreau just physically cannot consistently provide)

Tough to say Gaudreau can't score in the playoffs. He was neutralized by the Ducks both years but that is a poor matchup for him.

Johnny has proven to be a big game player several times throughout his career already. He was the best forward on the team NA at the World Cup. He scores huge goals when BC won the national title. He scorched team Canada with a hat trick in the world juniors. Lastly he scored the clutch tying goal against the Ducks in 2015 that avoided the sweep

[dino7c]

11 points in 15 playoff games...at his age

what a bum

McDavid has 9 points in 13 playoff games

[JFK]

It's funny how quickly narratives can change. The only truly poor playoff series Gaudreau has had was this year against the Ducks. He was good in 2015 against them and carried his line in 2015 in round one against the Canucks. Monahan and Hudler were banged up and borderline useless that series.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The sorts of defensemen Tinordi is talking about do more than put up points. They're all-around studs who a coach is comfortable putting out against elite opposition in a tight games. I haven't seen that from Hamilton yet. He often gets the yips when he doesn't have the puck, and gets caught swinging his stick at guys who beat him with speed. He's still young and improving. But he needs to learn to apply his natural gifts to play without the puck.

You may not have seen it from him, but Gulutzan sure did - and Hamilton + Giordano were the best d-pairing in the league (argue that if you must, but at worst they'd be what? The 3rd best?) so I guess I just find it odd that you hold an opinion that is so wildly different than that of NHL coaches.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by JFK

It's funny how quickly narratives can change. The only truly poor playoff series Gaudreau has had was this year against the Ducks. He was good in 2015 against them and carried his line in 2015 in round one against the Canucks. Monahan and Hudler were banged up and borderline useless that series.

Gaudreau wasn't poor against the Ducks this year. He and his line were snakebitten. There's a difference.

Gaudreau was much worse against the Canucks in 2015... invisible and not generating chances until game 6.

Originally Posted by Regorium

I don't think we do unless one of Bennett or Jankowski puts up a consistent 70 points a year. I think this team is just starved for playoff offence (ie. Something that gaudreau just physically cannot consistently provide)

If they're all playing down the middle it's kind of impossible for Bennett or Jankowski to do 70 points while Monahan is doing 60+ and Backlund is doing 50+. There just aren't that many minutes to go around. Even when Tyler Seguin was a point producer on the Bruins he was playing mostly on Patrice Bergeron's wing.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Gaudreau wasn't poor against the Ducks this year. He and his line were snakebitten. There's a difference.



Gaudreau was much worse against the Canucks in 2015... invisible and not generating chances until game 6.

Yeah, Gaudreau/Monahan/Ferland were just snakebitten in 5v5 play in the playoffs. They actually carried the play against the Ducks while they were on the ice, but people tend to make wild narratives up to explain bad luck because "blaming luck is an excuse" when really, it's a numbers game that we just happened to end up on the wrong side of at the wrong time.

Just goes to show how things have to go right for you at the right time in the playoffs to truly succeed.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, Gaudreau/Monahan/Ferland were just snakebitten in 5v5 play in the playoffs. They actually carried the play against the Ducks while they were on the ice, but people tend to make wild narratives up to explain bad luck because "blaming luck is an excuse" when really, it's a numbers game that we just happened to end up on the wrong side of at the wrong time.

Just goes to show how things have to go right for you at the right time in the playoffs to truly succeed.

I've seen guys like Patrick Kane not produce in the first few games of some playoff series, and then explode later in the series productionwise and the retro-narrative is how great a 6 or 7 game series that player had.

Unfortunately Gaudreau didn't get that chance.

[GoJetsGo]

Not to mention, Kane was shut down this season - in his prime - against Nashville. Had just two points in four games as they were swept in four games.

It happens.

Someone labeled Gaudreau a poor playoff performer in another thread because of his stat line in this years playoffs and said he's no Pat Kane (despite their identical stat line).

Amazing how devoid of context some people are.

Jonny has been a game breaker very early in his young career. He can and will get better as he matures and enters his prime.

[Northendzone]

I still think that we are likely one player away, perhaps a big power type forward, but there is a 0(high) chance I may be wrong.

Right now, the team looks good on paper.

[Strange Brew]

This core group still has some developing to do before I am comfortable making a determination. The on ice results just haven't been there yet so can't say yes, but they are just too young to conclude they don't have the potential.

I'd be a little more comfortable if they had put more of a scare in the Ducks. Yes it was closer than a four game sweep would indicate, but I don't subscribe to the snake bitten narrative. When each game was on the line, my recollection was that Flames 5 on 5 offence didn't threaten.

[Gaudfather]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This core group still has some developing to do before I am comfortable making a determination. The on ice results just haven't been there yet so can't say yes, but they are just too young to conclude they don't have the potential.

I'd be a little more comfortable if they had put more of a scare in the Ducks. Yes it was closer than a four game sweep would indicate, but I don't subscribe to the snake bitten narrative. When each game was on the line, my recollection was that Flames 5 on 5 offence didn't threaten.

They would have put more of a scare in the Ducks had the goaltending been just a notch better. That series would have easily went six games, if not seven.

[Max Cow Disease]

I don't see why not. Taking in to account the oftentimes random fortune of sport along with the make-up of this team, I'd definitely put them in the NHL's "have a good chance" tier. The dominant teams of the past 10 years or so are all gradually undergoing metamorphosis, as Chicago's surely not the squad they were, ditto for the Kings, and Crosby's now 30, which is borderline geriatric by NHL standards.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

It was a huge need a couple years ago but I think they've done most of the work required there.

-Ferland has bodied his way onto the top two lines. He provides size and toughness with skill.
-Tkachuk was drafted to provide size, toughness and skill. He's working out great. Basically between Ferly and Tkachuk you can have a power forward on each of the top two lines.
-Brouwer was signed to add size and toughness and a right shot. He's been a bit of a disappointment so far but there's potential for him to rebound.
-Bennett although only slightly above average in size plays a very strong and tough game along the boards and in front of the net. Physicality will always be part of his game.
-Hathaway is likely the guy providing the size, toughness and agitation on the 4th line.
-Lazar was brought in and although he doesn't have better than average size, he certainly doesn't shy away from the physical part of the game.
-Then you have guys like Monahan and Janko who aren't particularly physical but do have nice size. You have a guy like Backlund who is about average in size but is very tenacious on the puck. Frolik has slightly above average size/strength and while not very physical he's tenacious like Backlund and doesn't play a soft game.

On the other end of the spectrum we've only got Versteeg and Gaudreau with below average size/strength. The big/strong forwards outnumber the small/weak ones by a significant margin. We could make a whole line of gritty, skilled forwards with Tkachuk-Bennett-Brouwer and still have a few physical forwards in Ferland and Hathaway to compliment the other lines.

I'm one of the posters on here accused of being the most concerned about size/strength/physicality and I'm fairly happy with where we're at. It'd be nice if we had one more power forward develop through the system in the next few years but it's not as big of a need as it once was. And with Smith, Carroll, Fisher we do have some guys in the system who may be able to bring that down the line.

The far bigger need this summer was adding some size/strength/toughness on the backend as that's been a big need for a couple years and was going to even bigger with the loss of Engelland. But the addition of Hamonic and the re-signing of Stone gives us a couple guys who can play big minutes while giving us some size/strength/physicality. Gio plays a tough game but has only average size on defense. Hamonic and Stone bring the ability to really staple guys to the boards and body them out of the front of the net. However I'd say they are even better puck movers than Engelland was so overall the defense is a lot stronger. Hamilton will probably never be considered a huge banger but he's playing a lot less soft than he did when he first came here. With Russell gone we don't have any defensemen with below average size/strength. 1 through 5 I think our defense is one of the hardest to play against in the league.

I'd say we're nicely balanced overall. We have a nice blend of skill, skating, size and toughness at all positions. We even have some size and toughness in goal now :P LA may not play as physical of a game with their coaching/management turnover. ANA has a lot of powerforwards to contend with but I think we're in better shape than we used to be. EDM has improved a lot in this area in the last couple years as well. I think we're as hard to play against as anybody in the division.

I agree with everything on here except the Versteeg assessment. I think Versteeg was our most physical forward against the Ducks, and the most difficult to play against, and that is one of the reasons why I really wanted him re-signed.

It will be interesting to see how the Flames do physically against the Oilers. I do think they have more 'team toughness' - more players that will engage physically and even drop the mitts - but the Oilers have bigger and tougher guys that do that.

There aren't many players on the Flames in the category of Lucic, Maroon, Kassian and Nurse. Flames have Ferland... and... well.. nobody else remotely close to that level. Gazdic doesn't count for me, as I bet outside of the split-squad games, he sits. He gets a recall if in one game the Oilers rough-up the Flames badly and Calgary is intent on sending a response, or are expecting more shenanigans.

For me, it will be interesting to see that dynamic of the game play itself out. We don't know how the Flames will respond. The Flames became a better team when Tim Hunter was able to stand up to the Oilers back in the mid 80's. This isn't an Oilers' team riding a bona fide enforcer either for which they designed a solid plan around (like they did with McIntyre where the plan was to hit him at every opportunity trying to elicit a reaction upon which the refs would instantly grab McIntyre and assess a penalty against the Oilers).

I do definitely agree that the Flames are big/tough enough, and hard to play against. I think that is one of the areas of success for them as a team - they are a difficult team to play against now, and are a very skilled team while they are doing it.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

It will be interesting to see how the Flames do physically against the Oilers. I do think they have more 'team toughness' - more players that will engage physically and even drop the mitts - but the Oilers have bigger and tougher guys that do that.

There aren't many players on the Flames in the category of Lucic, Maroon, Kassian and Nurse. Flames have Ferland... and... well.. nobody else remotely close to that level.

I think saying we have only Ferland sells us a bit short. For starters Nurse only had 3 fights last regular season which is the same amount as Bennett and Tkachuk had. Hathaway meanwhile had 4 in fairly limited action suggesting his number will be quite high if he wins a regular role. Hamonic led the Isles in fighting majors with 4. Not a huge number but he helps the team toughness.

So no, the Flames do not quite have the fighters the Oilers do in Lucic, Kassian and Maroon. But overall with Ferland, Hathaway, Tkachuk, Bennett and Hamonic I think the team toughness is just fine. Losing Engelland hurts in this area but I think that's why a guy like Hathaway is pretty much a shoe in for a roster spot. His toughness and agitation is a necessary element to be in the mix up front. Hathaway is the guy you'd most want sitting in the box for a 5 minute major out of any of our tough players IMO. He's not a prototypical tough guy but he can play the game tough while taking a regular shift.

I'm surprised with Bouma and Engelland gone that more fans don't see Hathaway as pretty much a lock to win a 4th line role. I think his toughness, agitation and energy is going to be important.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I think saying we have only Ferland sells us a bit short. For starters Nurse only had 3 fights last regular season which is the same amount as Bennett and Tkachuk had. Hathaway meanwhile had 4 in fairly limited action suggesting his number will be quite high if he wins a regular role. Hamonic led the Isles in fighting majors with 4. Not a huge number but he helps the team toughness.

So no, the Flames do not quite have the fighters the Oilers do in Lucic, Kassian and Maroon. But overall with Ferland, Hathaway, Tkachuk, Bennett and Hamonic I think the team toughness is just fine. Losing Engelland hurts in this area but I think that's why a guy like Hathaway is pretty much a shoe in for a roster spot. His toughness and agitation is a necessary element to be in the mix up front. Hathaway is the guy you'd most want sitting in the box for a 5 minute major out of any of our tough players IMO. He's not a prototypical tough guy but he can play the game tough while taking a regular shift.

I'm surprised with Bouma and Engelland gone that more fans don't see Hathaway as pretty much a lock to win a 4th line role. I think his toughness, agitation and energy is going to be important.

That's exactly what I mean, however.

I am not selling Hathaway short, and I do think he is nearly a lock to make the team. I agree with all your assessments on the team toughness - in fact, I think the Flames 'own' the Oilers in that regard.

My whole question is how their 'top 4' tough guys - Lucic, Kassian, Maroon and Nurse - are handled by the Flames. Flames only have Ferland to act as a guy to at least be able to step-up. Once again, it isn't the same thing that the Flames faced against the Oilers a while back when the Oilers tried utilizing McIntyre and the Flames built a sound strategy to make him a complete liability on the ice. Those guys - though they all have their warts - are fairly good hockey players (well, at least they all skate relatively well and are bona fide hockey players).

It doesn't sound like a big deal, but I am a fan that buys into 2 things:

1) I believe that players feel bigger themselves when they have someone to protect them
2) It can be demoralizing when something happens and the Flames have no answer

For instance, Calgary vs Vancouver I thought was demoralizing for Vancouver, and it was the kick-start to their downward spiral.

Boston vs Buffalo (when Lucic was in Boston and Miller was in Buffalo) - that was completely demoralizing and, IMO, wrecked that team.

Lucic, Kassian and Nurse all have the reputation of just 'jumping' a guy. Maroon (AFAIK) is a tough guy, but much more respectable.

Hathaway, Hamonic, etc. - these guys are not in that class. I think Ferland is the only guy in that class, so at the top-end, the Flames are out-classed, and they are out-classed by 3 guys who IMO are not respectable. With a rivalry that is heating up, it does make me wonder IF something will happen, how the Flames manage to deal with it, etc. That is my worry. I actually think team toughness is now a strength of the Flames (and all but maybe 4 or 5 guys on the Flames drop the mitts), it is just their 'top-end' toughness (or whatever you want to call it) has been hurt with Engelland moving on and the Flames not finding a replacement.

[Par]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That's exactly what I mean, however.

I am not selling Hathaway short, and I do think he is nearly a lock to make the team. I agree with all your assessments on the team toughness - in fact, I think the Flames 'own' the Oilers in that regard.

My whole question is how their 'top 4' tough guys - Lucic, Kassian, Maroon and Nurse - are handled by the Flames. Flames only have Ferland to act as a guy to at least be able to step-up. Once again, it isn't the same thing that the Flames faced against the Oilers a while back when the Oilers tried utilizing McIntyre and the Flames built a sound strategy to make him a complete liability on the ice. Those guys - though they all have their warts - are fairly good hockey players (well, at least they all skate relatively well and are bona fide hockey players).

It doesn't sound like a big deal, but I am a fan that buys into 2 things:

1) I believe that players feel bigger themselves when they have someone to protect them
2) It can be demoralizing when something happens and the Flames have no answer

For instance, Calgary vs Vancouver I thought was demoralizing for Vancouver, and it was the kick-start to their downward spiral.

Boston vs Buffalo (when Lucic was in Boston and Miller was in Buffalo) - that was completely demoralizing and, IMO, wrecked that team.

Lucic, Kassian and Nurse all have the reputation of just 'jumping' a guy. Maroon (AFAIK) is a tough guy, but much more respectable.

Hathaway, Hamonic, etc. - these guys are not in that class. I think Ferland is the only guy in that class, so at the top-end, the Flames are out-classed, and they are out-classed by 3 guys who IMO are not respectable. With a rivalry that is heating up, it does make me wonder IF something will happen, how the Flames manage to deal with it, etc. That is my worry. I actually think team toughness is now a strength of the Flames (and all but maybe 4 or 5 guys on the Flames drop the mitts), it is just their 'top-end' toughness (or whatever you want to call it) has been hurt with Engelland moving on and the Flames not finding a replacement.

I agree with you Calgary4LIfe on your 2 points and how do the Flames deal with Lucic, Kassian, Maroon and Nurse? I think they deal with them as team, when those 4 #######s are trying to bully someone on the Flames have the team stand up to them(that is the only way I can think of.)

Someone like Gabriel Landeskog would do wonders for this team.

[JohnnyTitan]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

'top-end' toughness has been hurt with Engelland moving on and the Flames not finding a replacement.

Hockeydb (probably not the best source for weights) has Hamonic a whopping 9 lbs less than Engelland.

And I'm going to assume that Hamonic will be on the ice ~5 minutes more a game than Engelland.

And Stone is bigger than Wideman by a slight margin.

I loved what Deryk brought to the Flames...but how many times this season are we way softer due to the Engelland for Hamonic & Stone swap? I will hypothesize that Hamonic will lay more big hits during game action. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how those games against the Oilers pan out. I feel that we can pick on their skilled guys as well as they can pick on our skilled guys.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I've seen guys like Patrick Kane not produce in the first few games of some playoff series, and then explode later in the series productionwise and the retro-narrative is how great a 6 or 7 game series that player had.

Unfortunately Gaudreau didn't get that chance.

JG needs to show he can perform thru the hack and slash that he attracts now - it seems too easy to get him off his game.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Corral

JG needs to show he can perform thru the hack and slash that he attracts now - it seems too easy to get him off his game.

I don't agree with this at all. In the game that he was slashed 21 times, which broke his finger, he was dangerous all game and scored the only goal.

The level of slashing he took last year likely won't happen again anyways - if the league is to be believed and it is something that will be addressed after being brought up at GM meetings.

If you mean "JG needs to stop turning around and looking at refs when he gets slashed and it stops a scoring chance" well, I disagree on that front as well. NHL refs need to be held accountable for not doing their jobs correctly. Last season was an embarrassing year for the refs league-wide (culminating in a laughable no goal call in the Stanley Cup deciding game), hopefully they get it together and improve next year.

[united]

To me, a Stanley Cup contender needs the following in its core:
Two elite players in any position.
A solid checking line.
Average or better goaltending.

In my mind, the Flames have:
Three elite players in Giordano, Hamilton, and Gaudreau.
An elite checking line in the 3M line.
And I expect Smith to be around league average which is fine. Better is a bonus.

Given that, the Flames are absolutely cup contenders. The difference among the various contenders is depth, where the Flames are stacked on defence but lacking on offence. A Bennett breakout year and/or adding Jagr would make the Flames extremely formidable.