[PGT] Chicago 5 - Calgary 3

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If that is your core and group of best players are you really any better than any other team?

Maybe it’s semantics (retool vs rebuild) but IMO that group of players isn’t enough to carry a team.

Trading Gaudreau or Monahan will require some kind of sacrifice. You might be able to acquire a better player, but their contract won’t be as favorable and they will be older. You could trade for a high end prospect, but will require patience. Or you could trade for a trove of draft picks but even more patience will be required.

As Flames fans, we look at the Iginla/Nieuwendyk and Brett Hull/Ramage & Wamsley trades as situations where the team giving up the veterans did well for themselves. But those trades are unicorns IMO and I’m just not sure it’s reasonable to expect that high end a prospect in return.

I think you have to look at Gio and Backlund too. If you can find guys like like Ryan on the UFA market, trading Backlund wouldn’t hurt that much.

So my point is, which I’m not making very clearly, is if those guys are your core I think you’re looking at something like a rebuild which will require picks and or prospects to pan out as hoped in order to be competing for championships.

Wasn't trying to name a core, just naming young valued pieces.

I think the key is making the move soon, when you can get some value for the discounted contracts of some of the current core players.

That's the peak value.

And then I agree ... get younger, not older and more expensive. Clearly you can't turn a Gaudreau into an established young stud, but get some can't miss (or team staff opinion can't miss) prospects and picks.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I hope they know what's wrong with Gaudreau.

I don't need to ever know, it's his life, but I hope they've gotten to the bottom of it, and have a good assessment of whether it can be rectified in this city or not.

But agreed. Given the randomness of teams going up and down every year I don't think teams should be built for windows as much as retooled over and over again to keep assets moving forward.

You have to be as ruthless as the Patriots in a capped world where every team, bar a tiny handful, is some shade of "average". No legacy contracts for favourite vets. No contracts for more than 2 years for any 30 year-olds. None of this stupid "but he is a fan favourite" sentimentality. Get as much as you can out of the peak years and move on. We got very lucky with Giordano, but now that he is heading downhill, trade him - there will be other captains and it's not like we have achieved anything with this one. It might already be too late to salvage any real value from Backlund. Don't even hint at contract talks with Hamonic. Etc, etc, etc. Players in the NFL know they will not get the warm & fuzzies in Foxboro, but they still want to play there because they win. If the Flames can create a "machine", players will want to play here.

[Red]

No need to blow it up. A top line C would change this team in a massive way. Hopefully allowing Johnny and Monahan to drop to line 2. Easier competition would do wonders for them. It then slots Backs where he belongs, on a checking line.

Even a top line RW would change them a lot. Now you could build a second line around Chucky and Lidholm.

Tough task to find those guys, especially the top C but at the same time Kane, ROR and Stone were all available recently so its not impossible.

All I ask is no more small players. We have plenty of soft guys on the team already.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

You have to be as ruthless as the Patriots in a capped world where every team, bar a tiny handful, is some shade of "average". No legacy contracts for favourite vets. No contracts for more than 2 years for any 30 year-olds. None of this stupid "but he is a fan favourite" sentimentality. Get as much as you can out of the peak years and move on. We got very lucky with Giordano, but now that he is heading downhill, trade him - there will be other captains and it's not like we have achieved anything with this one. It might already be too late to salvage any real value from Backlund. Don't even hint at contract talks with Hamonic. Etc, etc, etc. Players in the NFL know they will not get the warm & fuzzies in Foxboro, but they still want to play there because they win. If the Flames can create a "machine", players will want to play here.

How do you go to your proud team captain who has busted his but to climb from undrafted free agent to Norris winning defenseman that you want to move on from him? I just don't think Treliving would do that. Any team that may have interest is probably looking at a Stanley Cup window so the GM may get to a point where he has to ask if he wants an opportunity to win a cup maybe back out east where he's from. Then again if he wants to finish out his career in Calgary it's probably not the worst thing for the Flames as while he's not been his best this season he's still a good player.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How do you go to your proud team captain who has busted his but to climb from undrafted free agent to Norris winning defenseman that you want to move on from him? I just don't think Treliving would do that. Any team that may have interest is probably looking at a Stanley Cup window so the GM may get to a point where he has to ask if he wants an opportunity to win a cup maybe back out east where he's from. Then again if he wants to finish out his career in Calgary it's probably not the worst thing for the Flames as while he's not been his best this season he's still a good player.

It will be interesting to see if Capt. Gio is exposed at expansion draft.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I picked young players as an example. I didn't say every other player had to go.

Young teams with young pieces don't have to rebuid, they retool. Since your record on this message board is excellent, can you pull out some St. Louis Blues are the model franchise quotes from a year ago and older for us?

Yeah sure, here's a few I found:

Here's me in 2013, you might find this relevant to the sam bennett thread I posted a couple of years ago:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That's their most admirable characteristic, I think. Let proven talent evaluators evaluate talent, and guys who they think aren't going to cut the mustard, they move quickly and decisively to maximize their value. You don't wait for a prospect to bottom out before trading them.

Edit: And just look at the returns on those trades. Turn top picks into better depth. That Johnson/Shattenkirk trade is balancing out a bit more for Colorado now that Johnson is rounding out, but it's still a St. Louis win. Rundblad for Tarasenko? Robbery at this point in my opinion.

Same thread, talking about how good the blues are at evaluating talent:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Or St.Louis, which I think is the most pertinent example.

Davidson shielded that management group from ownership scrutiny, allowing guys like Jarmo Kekaleinen and Doug Armstrong (who had previous general manager experience as well), extremely good talent evaluators, to get their feet wet with other effective managers like Pleau around as a sounding board and buffer.

Davidson oversaw the transition of Pleau from GM to advisor and Armstrong to GM. I believe Burke sees himself in a similar role; as a kind of Steward of the franchise, hoping to bring in talented guys and prevent them from making mistakes that could shorten their tenure.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Wasn't trying to name a core, just naming young valued pieces.

I think the key is making the move soon, when you can get some value for the discounted contracts of some of the current core players.

That's the peak value.

And then I agree ... get younger, not older and more expensive. Clearly you can't turn a Gaudreau into an established young stud, but get some can't miss (or team staff opinion can't miss) prospects and picks.

Do you truly believe this organization, and this GM, is prepared to do that? I hope they have the guts. The teams that traded Hamilton and Hamonic to the Flames are better off for having done so it would seem. I’m just very worried they’re going to look at shortcuts.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How do you go to your proud team captain who has busted his but to climb from undrafted free agent to Norris winning defenseman that you want to move on from him? I just don't think Treliving would do that. Any team that may have interest is probably looking at a Stanley Cup window so the GM may get to a point where he has to ask if he wants an opportunity to win a cup maybe back out east where he's from. Then again if he wants to finish out his career in Calgary it's probably not the worst thing for the Flames as while he's not been his best this season he's still a good player.

Bill in New England seems to have no issue with it, and he does ok. It's a business. A business with a limited budget. If you want to use some of that budget on heartwarming stories, that's fine, but it limits your ability to acquire assets that actually produce. And, yes, I know there is the whole chemistry/psychology aspect to it, so you have to weigh all that as part of it. But, given that we have accomplished absolutely nothing here, I do not see the need for legacy contracts for nice guys like Backlund and Giordano. At least the Hawks and Kings handed theirs out after multiple championships (and we still criticized them).

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Yoho

It will be interesting to see if Capt. Gio is exposed at expansion draft.

It is all but guaranteed he'll be exposed. Seattle's first season Gio will be 38 years old and he's starting to slow down at a huge rate already this season.

Seattle will not select Mark Giordano as it would be a boneheaded pick on their part, therefore if you protect Gio you're doing it purely as a gesture or statement to Mark Giordano at the business expense of exposing and losing a good, young D-man.

That would be a catastrophic failure of the highest order.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Bill in New England seems to have no issue with it, and he does ok. It's a business. A business with a limited budget. If you want to use some of that budget on heartwarming stories, that's fine, but it limits your ability to acquire assets that actually produce. And, yes, I know there is the whole chemistry/psychology aspect to it, so you have to weigh all that as part of it. But, given that we have accomplished absolutely nothing here, I do not see the need for legacy contracts for nice guys like Backlund and Giordano. At least the Hawks and Kings handed theirs out after multiple championships (and we still criticized them).

I totally get that but the NHL has always lagged behind the NFL business model as it's still largely an old boys club full of dinosaurs and even a younger GM like Treliving still follows some of the outdated methodologies of trying to buy leadership and character as we have seen with some absolutely horrible free agency signings. This is after all the organization that botched the Iginla situation so I have little confidence the people in power could recognize that the right decision may be the one that doesn't result a fairytale ending. IMO the proper way to run an organization is to never have a list of players that are untradable. Unless you have the greatest player in the game a team every player on the roster should be available for a price as the team should always been looking improve their roster.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Rebuild talk is off the mark, IMO. Just knee-jerk reactions to a frustrating season.

The Flames have several valuable assets in the 21 -26 year age group. You don't tear that apart, you determine which pieces are the keepers to build around, and you keep adding to it.

Rebuilding again, because it didn't all come together on the first try, is how you remain in perpetual rebuild. Canadian fans are way, way too impatient.

How many decades in before it's okay to be impatient?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by zamler

How many decades in before it's okay to be impatient?

Yeah it's hard to accuse any Canadian fan base of being impatient. None of them have won a cup for decades and every team has gone through some absolutely miserable spells and mediocrity has largely prevailed from coast to coast.

[Flash Walken]

Christ, it's not even 'success', at this point it's 'consecutive years in the playoffs'.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah it's hard to accuse any Canadian fan base of being impatient. None of them have won a cup for decades and every team has gone through some absolutely miserable spells and mediocrity has largely prevailed from coast to coast.

I think his point might be the fans are impatient so that forces GMs to panic and make stupid moves. But I don't buy that argument every fanbase is just as impatient you see the same talk all the time no matter the team and fans. The way I look at it is Canadian hockey fans are going to go to games no matter what (almost) so any GM can take all the time they need.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by zamler

How many decades in before it's okay to be impatient?

Cute, but the mistakes of 10 or 20 years ago shouldn't dictate current current actions.

I know people are frustrated, and it is human nature to try and pile up the problems and perceived issues, in order to justify the frustration, but making management decisions based on the past, is just foolish and reactionary.

The relevant issue is where the team is now (not where it was 10 years ago). And the fact of the matter is that the team has lots of young assets. This is a team that should be built upon, not torn down.

Does that mean don't trade anyone? No it doesn't. If you determine that one, or a few, of the pieces are not part of the solution, then you move them for other pieces.

But rebuilds are for when your players are aging and you're out of assets. The Flames are largely constructed of players 26 and younger. Lots and lots to work with and build around.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah it's hard to accuse any Canadian fan base of being impatient. None of them have won a cup for decades and every team has gone through some absolutely miserable spells and mediocrity has largely prevailed from coast to coast.

Yeah, but is that because the teams have been too patient, or because they have been too impatient?

[bubbsy]

If the flames had the stones to dot, I firmly believe Giordano and backlund are shopped HEAVILY come deadline, if they aren't a playoff team, and in the off season unless they win a few rounds.

They are both diminishing assets, eating substantial cap.

[Enoch Root]

I highly doubt Giordano is shopped HEAVILY.

[Yoho]

Backlund 5 more years @ 5.35 mil on pace for 35 points despite playing with top two lines won’t have a ton of teams lined up.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Cute, but the mistakes of 10 or 20 years ago shouldn't dictate current current actions.

Nothing cute it's the harsh reality.

I know people are frustrated, and it is human nature to try and pile up the problems and perceived issues, in order to justify the frustration, but making management decisions based on the past, is just foolish and reactionary.

Perceived issues? This team has real issues.

The relevant issue is where the team is now (not where it was 10 years ago). And the fact of the matter is that the team has lots of young assets. This is a team that should be built upon, not torn down.

The team is about where it was 10 years ago. As for building on the current roster that's not going to be easy since we need a:
#1 center
#1 goalie
at least one sniper and some scoring depth.

Does that mean don't trade anyone? No it doesn't. If you determine that one, or a few, of the pieces are not part of the solution, then you move them for other pieces.

Why hasn't it been done already? What is your expected timeline before this team wins a few playoff rounds (in one year).

But rebuilds are for when your players are aging and you're out of assets. The Flames are largely constructed of players 26 and younger. Lots and lots to work with and build around.

What assets does the team have to get what I stated above?