Minneapolis PD Suffocate Unarmed Black Man Who Later Dies in Hospital

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Acey

The mantra of "it's just a knife, why shoot" has been disproven a gazillion times over so that's not even an argument to be made here.

Is there a crisis of police officers in the UK (who, as I mentioned above, do not carry guns) being killed by knife attacks? No? Then presumably there is another way for officers to respond to knife-wielding suspects other than shooting them dead. What we as citizens should be demanding from our police forcers is better tactics, better training, and a de-escalation first policy, not blindly accepting the mantra of "He/she had a knife, the officer HAD to shoot!"

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Slava

I can’t possibly be the only one here who had zero idea that was a thing until this thread? Maybe I’m just that far out of touch, but I’d have had said thug and thought absolutely nothing of it being racial until this moment.

It’s a tangent, but it’s impossible to keep up in these things. I just had no idea there was a racial connotation at all.

It's one of the words with nuance and context involved that yes, under certain circumstances, is racist or offensive. We all know some of the stronger words that should never be said in any context at all. That's not what we're getting at here.

As noted, calling Zack Kassian a thug or a monkey or ape, not offensive and actually very appropriate, accurate descriptors. Calling Wayne Simmonds or Ryan Reaves or Jarome Iginla such things, even in context to just their hockey play, no it's not okay. Specifically calling a white person looting/rioting a thug, is fine. Especially to their face. Please do if you have the chance. Referring to the rioters/looters as thugs overall, when it is part of a racially motivated protest, where right-leaning conservative news outlets and pundits have long used that word as a replacement for the words they wished the COULD use, yeah, not okay.

If you didn't know thug belonged on that list before that IS okay. Learning is happening. No one's saying you're a bad person for using it in ignorance. And those of us asking for nuance now are not saying we haven't also used language like this in our past. No one's saying it's even as bad as words like monkey or ape. If you have or do, just don't next time. Not every person of color needs to be offended by something in order for us to decide to choose our language more carefully to create a more inclusive society for everyone.

This whole thing is about waking up to these types of things that we maybe weren't recognizing we were doing before. Even those of us who consider themselves to have always been on the side of equality and justice, we are doing things that are oppressive without realizing it. We can and will be forgiven for these if we make honest attempts to make change in ourselves and in our communities. Arguing semantics and getting defensive about "well what about THIS time i used the word?" doesn't help the conversation and feels like (some) people being purposefully obtuse.

[Harry Lime]

We are in week one of global protests and riots concerning the use of excessive force by police, especially against people of color. There is no reason to believe that the officer is lying, but the deceased woman being a mother of a five year old, with no prior history, no secondary witnesses and no body cam....

The timing of this could literally not be worse.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

If you're ill-prepared against a knife-attacker (i.e. already are close enough to an assailant), there's no such thing as stepping back once you're charged at. It's life or death decision making, not half measures hoping for the best.

This just emphasizes the need for body cams. The investigation would clearly show the officer story is accurate, that she opened the door and immediately charged at him with a knife, or something else fishy happened and the cop is lying. Once again the only police who would argue against body-cams will be the ones who would be in the position that the latter happens.

If you are wearing body armour, the standard Kevlar vest, even without a helmet it is very unlikely you are going to get stabbed anyway as most every stabbing is to the torso if you don't raise your hands to shield yourself, it takes exactly the same time and decision process to pull out your night stick and or taser and subdue a knife wielding 100 pound girl alive as it does your gun.

There is something very wrong with this shooting it in no way adds up

[stang]

Are the riots dying down or still going on strong? Being rural and not going out much I was a little ignorant on the matter and didn’t realize the full scope of what’s going on.

[afc wimbledon]

I had to go to court with an old foster kid a few years back, while we were waiting for his case we sat in on a murder case, a Chinese guy with obvious mental health issues stabbed his elderly mother to death and stabbed his 8 year old niece in the stomach, the police mans testimony was quite interesting, his was a Brit recruited from Newcastle's police a few years before, when he and his partner arrived at the apartment door he described blood everywhere all over the walls and floor, the suspect emerged brandishing a large kitchen knife covered in blood, his partner pulled his weapon while the British cop pulled his night stick and proceeded to smash the stick onto the suspects elbow disabling him instantly, when complemented on his action and asked if he used his stick much his response was illuminating, 'not so much here but all the time in the UK'.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If you are wearing body armour, the standard Kevlar vest, even without a helmet it is very unlikely you are going to get stabbed anyway as most every stabbing is to the torso if you don't raise your hands to shield yourself, it takes exactly the same time and decision process to pull out your night stick and or taser and subdue a knife wielding 100 pound girl alive as it does your gun.

There is something very wrong with this shooting it in no way adds up

Just last night in NYC, a cop was standing at a corner and a passer by whipped out a knife and stabbed him in the neck. Which led to the attacker and 2 more cops being shot.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/n...-brooklyn.html

[Ragnar]

At this rate an officer could be lying in a pool of his own blood, shoot his armed attacker, and someone in this thread would still be upset over use of excessive force.

When do we take a step back from the current social justice hysteria and actually start looking at facts before jumping to conclusions?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Just last night in NYC, a cop was standing at a corner and a passer by whipped out a knife and stabbed him in the neck. Which led to the attacker and 2 more cops being shot.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/n...-brooklyn.html

As I said, unlikely, and none of the cops was badly hurt, which is the point, for the police a knife wielding assailant isn't generally a deadly threat, they have the time and space to not kill them if they choose to, all to often the police have decided to kill someone with a knife that, once the police have arrived is no longer a threat to anyone else, doesn't have to be subdued straight away, can be left to rant and threaten while the scene is contained and a non lethal plan is put together.

What the police are really being is impatient, in their mind the threat has to be eliminated in a couple of seconds no matter what the cost to the suspect where as in the UK they don't have that option.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

At this rate an officer could be lying in a pool of his own blood, shoot his armed attacker, and someone in this thread would still be upset over use of excessive force.

When do we take a step back from the current social justice hysteria and actually start looking at facts before jumping to conclusions?

I would agree if I could find one instance anywhere of a policeman or woman killed by stabbing in the US, it is a non threat in truth, police don't get stabbed to death, they get shot, they get run over but they don't die of stabbings generally, in the UK since 1900 about 10 policemen have been stabbed to death, the vast majority of those pre kevlar vest era

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would agree if I could find one instance anywhere of a policeman or woman killed by stabbing, it is a non threat in truth, police don't get stabbed to death, they get shot, they get run over but they don't die of stabbings

Oh, well that's fine then. They should definitely be prepared to be stabbed on the job, so long as they don't die of it. No issues here!

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

At this rate an officer could be lying in a pool of his own blood, shoot his armed attacker, and someone in this thread would still be upset over use of excessive force.

When do we take a step back from the current social justice hysteria and actually start looking at facts before jumping to conclusions?

Exactly this is absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Then presumably there is another way for officers to respond to knife-wielding suspects other than shooting them dead. What we as citizens should be demanding from our police forcers is better tactics, better training, and a de-escalation first policy, not blindly accepting the mantra of "He/she had a knife, the officer HAD to shoot!"

We have seen Canadian police not immediately kill suspects that were yielding knives, suspects that have just killed multiple people in van attacks, et al.

There is no evidence to support the notion that Canadian police will inexplicably kill anybody that is holding a knife.

If you're trying to tell me that police in the UK are more capable of fighting off suspects charging at them with a knife intending to serious harm, I don't recall ever seeing evidence that suggests that. The last video I can recall watching of UK police is bodycam footage of a female officer getting the #### kicked out of her.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

As I said, unlikely, and none of the cops was badly hurt, which is the point, for the police a knife wielding assailant isn't generally a deadly threat, they have the time and space to not kill them if they choose to, all to often the police have decided to kill someone with a knife that, once the police have arrived is no longer a threat to anyone else, doesn't have to be subdued straight away, can be left to rant and threaten while the scene is contained and a non lethal plan is put together.

What the police are really being is impatient, in their mind the threat has to be eliminated in a couple of seconds no matter what the cost to the suspect where as in the UK they don't have that option.

So,
your definition of unlikely = said event happens not 24 hours before your post.

and

being stabbed unaware in the neck = minor injury, and not a deadly threat.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

As I said, unlikely, and none of the cops was badly hurt, which is the point, for the police a knife wielding assailant isn't generally a deadly threat, they have the time and space to not kill them if they choose to, all to often the police have decided to kill someone with a knife that, once the police have arrived is no longer a threat to anyone else, doesn't have to be subdued straight away, can be left to rant and threaten while the scene is contained and a non lethal plan is put together.

What the police are really being is impatient, in their mind the threat has to be eliminated in a couple of seconds no matter what the cost to the suspect where as in the UK they don't have that option.

Good lord man...its only because the guy didnt catch an artery...otherwise his wife is a widow today. Im sure the knife wound in his neck feels just great! What's next...he will be OK because he has insurance?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

At this rate an officer could be lying in a pool of his own blood, shoot his armed attacker, and someone in this thread would still be upset over use of excessive force.

When do we take a step back from the current social justice hysteria and actually start looking at facts before jumping to conclusions?

That's quite the handsome strawman you've got there. If you want to really have fact-based discussions, a good start would be not concocting ridiculous claims about what 'someone in this thread' would say.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by stang

Are the riots dying down or still going on strong? Being rural and not going out much I was a little ignorant on the matter and didn’t realize the full scope of what’s going on.

I believe so.
There are no longer any protests at all in my area.
There hasn't been nearly much activity since the weekend ended.

[afc wimbledon]

Police are attacked all the time, with all kinds of weapons, it is the nature of the job, and I for one think that's terrible but the question is why do we accept that cops shoot people dead with a knife when they are no more a threat (and in truth far less) than someone in a car, we don't accept the cops shooting drivers dead because they refused to get out of their car and yet we are fine with cops killing someone with a knife.

I'm not saying its fine that people try and stab policemen, I am saying policemen don't have to shoot someone with a knife, there is always a less deadly option, such as backing up, that N American police don't bother waiting or training for or really think about much.

[Acey]

This is the incident I was thinking of.

An assailant who was violently waving a large knife begged Toronto Police to kill him.

“Shoot me, shoot me,” he demanded.

Toronto Police officers, several of whom were chased at knifepoint, didn’t oblige.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...e-wielding-man

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would agree if I could find one instance anywhere of a policeman or woman killed by stabbing in the US, it is a non threat in truth, police don't get stabbed to death, they get shot, they get run over but they don't die of stabbings generally, in the UK since 1900 about 10 policemen have been stabbed to death, the vast majority of those pre kevlar vest era

I also wonder if they don't get stabbed to death very much because they have guns and are trained to use them at will. Not trying to pile on but it's probably the ole knife to a gun fight scenario.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

why do we accept that cops shoot people dead with a knife when they are no more a threat (and in truth far less) than someone in a car,

Do you mean someone in a car on a traffic stop that an officer is approaching, or someone flooring it towards an officer in a car?

...cause if someone's using their car as a weapon at you I understand shooting in that scenario, and if someone is trying to inflict fatal wounds on you I understand shooting in that scenario. Even with corrupt cops in the US they are typically not just walking up to people on traffic stops and opening fire. So what are we saying here?