Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

... to say nothing of the insanely low labour costs.

That's a stereotype about China that is quickly changing in the reality of today's economy. A huge volume of manufacturing has moved out of China to Vietnam, Thailand, etc. in the past 5 years because of skyrocketing labor costs as wages and cost of living have gone up dramatically. It's still definitely nothing compared to UAW wages but it is something that is changing quickly.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

...or lax environmental standards.

I hate Communist China probably a little more than the average person because my roots are democratic Hong Kong, I went to school with one of the Michaels, etc. etc. but I think this is also something that is rapidly changing with China. They are becoming a leader in the EV space because of stricter environmental policies that have even banned internal combustion engines and certain classes of vehicles in big cities. There's a lot of strict environmental controls in manufacturing as well. I hate the government but I want the green policies and I want the cars.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

That's a stereotype about China that is quickly changing in the reality of today's economy. A huge volume of manufacturing has moved out of China to Vietnam, Thailand, etc. in the past 5 years because of skyrocketing labor costs as wages and cost of living have gone up dramatically. It's still definitely nothing compared to UAW wages but it is something that is changing quickly.

That wasn't me stereotyping China, to be fair, but rather commentary on BYD specifically, precisely because they don't have the UAW to contend with over there, and because there is cheap labour in the general area they can leverage that other manufacturers in America and Europe cannot.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

That wasn't me stereotyping China, to be fair, but rather commentary on BYD specifically, precisely because they don't have the UAW to contend with over there, and because there is cheap labour in the general area they can leverage that other manufacturers in America and Europe cannot.

That's exactly why Tesla is looking to start manufacturing their lower end models in China and Mexico and exporting to the US, the problem is the tariffs.

[Fuzz]

The problem isn't the tariffs, the tariffs are the solution to the problem.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The only issue with that worth considering is the lower charging rates are less efficient, particularity if you have an unheated garage. It needs to heat the battery, so more percent of the energy delivered goes to heating at lower rates. That, and because you are at 110v 220v you have more resistive losses. I think it's in the range of 20%, and if you add that to a cold garage problem, you may pay for the difference in electrical usage over the years.

For sure without a heated garage this would be a no go, That said, getting 220 to my garage with a finished basement, a long run needed, a load management relay and the charger would probably have touched 9-10k. The days a year where I’m losing some efficiency due to cold aren’t probably enough to worry about it vs that cost.

That said, with where we are going in terms of EV usage building codes should require mandatory 220 to garages.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Whynotnow

For sure without a heated garage this would be a no go, That said, getting 220 to my garage with a finished basement, a long run needed, a load management relay and the charger would probably have touched 9-10k. The days a year where I’m losing some efficiency due to cold aren’t probably enough to worry about it vs that cost.

That said, with where we are going in terms of EV usage building codes should require mandatory 220 to garages.

I definitely don't have a heated garage, but good news is being inner city, my main electrical panel is located in the garage, so looks like the install will be pretty inexpensive.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

I definitely don't have a heated garage, but good news is being inner city, my main electrical panel is located in the garage, so looks like the install will be pretty inexpensive.

You are in luck indeed. Enjoy the EV, I love ours and was sceptical. So, so much fun to drive, always warm and ready to go, never filling up for gas, no maintenance. Just a real pleasure for the type of use we got it for.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The problem isn't the tariffs, the tariffs are the solution to the problem.

If the problem is needing more expensive, less innovative vehicles, then it does solve that problem.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

If the problem is needing more expensive, less innovative vehicles, then it does solve that problem.

Fortunately we have more priorities as a country than that.

If you decimate our automotive sector, who's going to buy these cheap Chinese EV's? And in that case, why protect our economy at all? Open it all up and lets see how fast that race to the bottom really happens.

I'm not sure we need to debate basic principles of tariffs and trade here.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Fortunately we have more priorities as a country than that.

If you decimate our automotive sector, who's going to buy these cheap Chinese EV's? And in that case, why protect our economy at all? Open it all up and lets see how fast that race to the bottom really happens.

I'm not sure we need to debate basic principles of tariffs and trade here.

I don't disagree, my point was that it doesn't solve Hack n Lube's problem of no cheap EVs here

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Fortunately we have more priorities as a country than that.

If you decimate our automotive sector, who's going to buy these cheap Chinese EV's? And in that case, why protect our economy at all? Open it all up and lets see how fast that race to the bottom really happens.

I'm not sure we need to debate basic principles of tariffs and trade here.

We shouldn't if it means Canadians get an inferior product at higher prices. That's where we fundamentally see things differently. I believe in free trade and globalization. If your local industries are not competitive on the global market, you should not insulate them with subsidies and tariffs. I wish we would get rid of Supply Management which only exists to subsidize Canadian Dairy Farmers and incentivize waste. I want the best world cheeses at an affordable price, not bland tasteless Ontario cheese. We deserve the best cars at the best price. The Eastern governments have long subsidized Ford, GM, Bombardier, etc. ad infinitum to have manufacturing out east (to buy votes) and what does that provide for the rest of Canada? Only 125,000 auto workers in those factories. That's a tiny percentage of the 40 million people, which which need affordable EVs if we are going to meet our own government's targets.

[Fuzz]

Well, here ya go.


https://www.theautopian.com/this-dir...uld-be-pumped/


Their VF8 was pretty poorly reviewed. Maybe second try is better?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

We shouldn't if it means Canadians get an inferior product at higher prices. That's where we fundamentally see things differently. I believe in free trade and globalization. If your local industries are not competitive on the global market, you should not insulate them with subsidies and tariffs. I wish we would get rid of Supply Management which only exists to subsidize Canadian Dairy Farmers and incentivize waste. I want the best world cheeses at an affordable price, not bland tasteless Ontario cheese. We deserve the best cars at the best price. The Eastern governments have long subsidized Ford, GM, Bombardier, etc. ad infinitum to have manufacturing out east (to buy votes) and what does that provide for the rest of Canada? Only 125,000 auto workers in those factories. That's a tiny percentage of the 40 million people, which which need affordable EVs if we are going to meet our own government's targets.

If that's the case, we would need to prepare for a much lower standard of living. If we compete globally on a level playing field, you can see how that would necessitate a drop in standards to the average, right?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well, here ya go.


https://www.theautopian.com/this-dir...uld-be-pumped/


Their VF8 was pretty poorly reviewed. Maybe second try is better?

The VF3 looks like someone put a Toyota FJ Cruiser in a photocopier and hit 25%.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If that's the case, we would need to prepare for a much lower standard of living. If we compete globally on a level playing field, you can see how that would necessitate a drop in standards to the average, right?

No I don't see how Canada giving up 125,000 auto plant workers would lower the standard of living for the rest of the country. It's not a core strength of our economy since this is a tiny industry in which we are not competitive in to begin with. The main advantages to manufacturing in Ontario were supply chain proximity to Detroit and logistics and transport for rails and up the St. Lawrence and decades of government incentives to buy votes for job creation. I fully expect a lot of the Eastern auto manufacturing and supply chain companies to start experiencing stresses (Magna, etc.) once the part-heavy/mechanically complex internal combustion cars start disappearing off the roads and get replaced with comparatively simple EVs.

If the government is going to subsidize research, technology investments, and industry, they could go after things like solar research or provide start-up capital to companies who want to do R&D and engineering of home-grown electric vehicles. But ultimately, those may not be built in Canada if we want them to be competitive on the worldwide market. Look at the C300 series by Bombardier. They recieved millions of dollars in government funding for decades but they ended up selling the design to Airbus to $1 so Airbus could build the planes in Alabama. Bombardier is an example of a company that just would not be competitive and has rightfully left both the large commercial jet and train businesses. That's how it should be if you can't compete without subsidies.

Rather, our standard of living goes up when the majority of consumers are given choice and affordable options. That goes for everything from cars to food products to cell phone contracts which are inflated in this country. The three biggest things Canadians feel immediate pain on are the cost of commuting (car payments, repairs, fuel, etc.), the cost of food, and the price of housing. Giving Canadians affordable EVs with afforable power (CANDU nuclear) and making food affordable suddenly makes the cost of living substantially easier to bear.

[Fuzz]

Sure, you can highlight the failures(and to be fair, the auto sector is probably closer to 500k employment from what I have seen) but you ignore the successes, that is, Canada is not a struggling country with a standard of living similar to the ones you want to buy cheap stuff from. To suggest this would raise the standard of living for Canada basically ignores all known economic and trade theory for the concept of "I like shiny things".



By abandoning the automotive sector in Canada, you then also lose the peripheral advantages like natural resource sales, hurting our mining industry.


And do you have evidence the government isn't supporting solar and R&D?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

By abandoning the automotive sector in Canada, you then also lose the peripheral advantages like natural resource sales, hurting our mining industry.

And do you have evidence the government isn't supporting solar and R&D?

Yes they are definitely supporting those things, but I'm using them as examples of areas that we could focus on rather than the domestic auto industry. I don't think our natural resources really go directly into that manufacturing anyway. We definitely will be a player in the future in regard to some nickel and lithium mining for batteries but there are countries with much better known reserves.

I just don't understand how you see getting affordable consumer products (that are the biggests drivers of high cost of living in Canada) as driving down our standard of living overall.

Should we mandate that everybody has to drive expensive vehicles so that UAW workers can keep their jobs? Should we make everybody live in expensive houses so the home builders can keep lining their pockets? Hell I'm advocating for EVs and I know that's going to cause Albertans to lose jobs heavily and I've worked in O&G for years. I have no doubt electrification will lead to a lower standard of living for Alberta for a time but it will be offset by cheaper transportation costs for families and hopefully we will diversify our economy here.

[Fuzz]

Well yes, I do think our natural resources go into domestic vehicles. Where do you think all the plastics, aluminum, lubricants and steel come from? And going forward, we could support our lithium mining industries, and metals. I just don't think it is wise to abandon manufacturing by eliminating tariffs that help keep them viable, and continue to pay taxes which support our society. It's all a delicate balancing game.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well yes, I do think our natural resources go into domestic vehicles. Where do you think all the plastics, aluminum, lubricants and steel come from? And going forward, we could support our lithium mining industries, and metals. I just don't think it is wise to abandon manufacturing by eliminating tariffs that help keep them viable, and continue to pay taxes which support our society. It's all a delicate balancing game.

Correct me if I am wrong but Canada doesn't actually process very much of our resources into consumable products. While our mined ores end up in vehicles it gets shipped down to the US or, more commonly now, China to become sheet steel, aluminum billets, plastic pellets, etc.