Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I don't think he ever said they were going to run a candidate but rather they were going to buy up a huge amount of memberships which would allow them to sway the vote to a specific candidate.

And I am sure they are all going to revoke their UCP memberships first as the NDP bylaws require for membership.

[CliffFletcher]

Timely article in today’s NYT on the current state of transgendered care. [Edit: I see pepper24 beat me to the punch]

The UCP’s pending legislation panders to ignorance around the issue. However, anyone who genuinely wants to understand what’s happening in the field today needs to recognize that there is real concern among medical experts about the politicalization of the issue by trans activists as well as conservatives, and the haste with which medical interventions are being carried out today.

… Laura Edwards-Leeper, the founding psychologist of the first pediatric gender clinic in the United States, said that when she started her practice in 2007, most of her patients had longstanding and deep-seated gender dysphoria. Transitioning clearly made sense for almost all of them, and any mental health issues they had were generally resolved through gender transition.

“But that is just not the case anymore,” she told me recently. While she doesn’t regret transitioning the earlier cohort of patients and opposes government bans on transgender medical care, she said, “As far as I can tell, there are no professional organizations who are stepping in to regulate what’s going on.”

Most of her patients now, she said, have no history of childhood gender dysphoria…

… “The population has changed drastically,” said Edwards-Leeper, a former head of the Child and Adolescent Committee for the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, the organization responsible for setting gender transition guidelines for medical professionals.

For these young people, she told me, “you have to take time to really assess what’s going on and hear the timeline and get the parents’ perspective in order to create an individualized treatment plan. Many providers are completely missing that step.”

Yet those health care professionals and scientists who do not think clinicians should automatically agree to a young person’s self-diagnosis are often afraid to speak out. A report commissioned by the National Health Service about Britain’s Tavistock gender clinic, which, until it was ordered to be shut down, was the country’s only health center dedicated to gender identity, noted that “primary and secondary care staff have told us that they feel under pressure to adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach and that this is at odds with the standard process of clinical assessment and diagnosis that they have been trained to undertake in all other clinical encounters.”

On the suicide statistics that are often deployed to shut down concerns over intervention:

Parents are routinely warned that to pursue any path outside of agreeing with a child’s self-declared gender identity is to put a gender dysphoric youth at risk for suicide, which feels to many people like emotional blackmail. Proponents of the gender-affirming model have cited studies showing an association between that standard of care and a lower risk of suicide. But those studies were found to have methodological flaws or have been deemed not entirely conclusive. A survey of studies on the psychological effects of cross-sex hormones, published three years ago in The Journal of the Endocrine Society, the professional organization for hormone specialists, found it “could not draw any conclusions about death by suicide.” In a letter to The Wall Street Journal last year, 21 experts from nine countries said that survey was one reason they believed there was “no reliable evidence to suggest that hormonal transition is an effective suicide prevention measure.”

Moreover, the incidence of suicidal thoughts and attempts among gender dysphoric youth is complicated by the high incidence of accompanying conditions, such as autism spectrum disorder. As one systematic overview put it, “Children with gender dysphoria often experience a range of psychiatric comorbidities, with a high prevalence of mood and anxiety disorders, trauma, eating disorders and autism spectrum conditions, suicidality and self-harm.”

But rather than being treated as patients who deserve unbiased professional help, children with gender dysphoria often become political pawns.

Conservative lawmakers are working to ban access to gender care for minors and occasionally for adults as well. On the other side, however, many medical and mental health practitioners feel their hands have been tied by activist pressure and organizational capture. They say that it has become difficult to practice responsible mental health care or medicine for these young people…

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/o...b87a3317acc022

It’s a complex issue. Anyone interested in educating themselves about it should make an effort to go beyond twitter sloganeering and partisan slap-fights.

Reuters also did an excellent series of articles on the subject:

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...children%20now

[pepper24]

Angus Reid: Vast majority say schools should inform parents if children wish to change their pronouns, are split over issue of parental consent

https://angusreid.org/canada-schools...new-brunswick/

[Ozy_Flame]

All I see from that Angus Reid data is men and women are polling significantly different (with women being far more progressive on the issue), and non-university educated people want far more omnipotent control over their kids. Nothing surprising here.

Lets take this further. I'd like to see that same poll done with which kind of gender pronouns parents will allow and to what depth, whether experts should be involved in the conversation such as physicians and school counsellors, and also gauge them and where they sit on "my body, my choice".

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by pepper24

New York Times: As Kids, They Thought They Were Trans. They No Longer Do.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/o...dysphoria.html

Here's some helpful reading for context before getting into yet another NYT piece on this issue.

How Many Trans People Does the New York Times Believe There Should Be?
https://defector.com/how-many-trans-...here-should-be

The New York Times Continues To Make Its Priorities Clear
https://defector.com/the-new-york-ti...iorities-clear

Hiding And Seeking With The New York Times
https://defector.com/hiding-and-seek...new-york-times

EDIT: lol no surprise Cliff is all over this newest NYT piece.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

EDIT: lol no surprise Cliff is all over this newest NYT piece.

Poisoning the well over the NYT. I suppose Reuters can’t be trusted on the issue either. Or the Atlantic.

What news media outlets do you regard as credible for people looking for thoroughly-sourced, nuanced, rounded analysis of the issue? Those Defector pieces certainly don’t fit the bill.

[Wormius]

I swear I had seen that NYT piece years ago.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Poisoning the well over the NYT. I suppose Reuters can’t be trusted on the issue either. Or the Atlantic.

What news media outlets do you regard as credible for people looking for thoroughly-sourced, nuanced, rounded analysis of the issue? Those Defector pieces certainly don’t fit the bill.

All I'm asking if you consider why the NYT is so interested in these specific topics, with articles written by trans people and others who highlight the underlying socioecomonic and political currents that gird the NYT editors and senior writers.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

All I'm asking if you consider why the NYT is so interested in these specific topics, with articles written by trans people and others who highlight the underlying socioecomonic and political currents that gird the NYT editors and senior writers.

I don’t care about the socioeconomic and political currents that gird the NYT editors and seniors writers. I care about the facts and concerns expressed by medical experts in the field of gender care. And I’ve seen those facts and concerns expressed in a number of credible news outlets.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don’t care about the socioeconomic and political currents that gird the NYT editors and seniors writers. I care about the facts and concerns expressed by medical experts in the field of gender care. And I’ve seen those facts and concerns expressed in a number of credible news outlets.

Please Cliff, look just a little deeper. Two commonly quoted names in these highly-touted publications on this topic - Laura Edwards Leaper and Erica Anderson - are both the main voices against gender affirmative care and always have been. They're not interested in the main goal - ensuring the care is provided as needed without excessively impeding the process and leading to harm. They're only interested in adding more barriers to receiving care. Laura has endorsed known conversion therapists in the past. Why do you think the NYT would go to her?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I think that with the increasingly high rates of mental illness within the youth population and the different ways that it can manifest itself having a deft touch is required. I do think that taking control out of the hands of professionals such as educators and putting it in the uncaring/unfeeling hands of policy makers isn't a prudent move. From my observations on the subject a significant portion of the people who identify as trans have other psychological stressors and illnesses including depression and anxiety. Now I acknowledge that it is possible that they are depressed and have anxiety secondary to being transgendered, but I also think it is possible that we have a society that forces children to be adults at a rapidly younger age with social pressures that we never had to face when we were younger.

I don't have any real answers to this but I do know that any answers that exist will not be simple ones. I do have a fear that there are people on both ends of the spectrum who use youth as pawns, those on the right who act in punitive ways that can harm a youth going through a difficult time as well as those who are more progressive and can be progressive to a fault, saying that it is impossible to ask if there are other mental health concerns that may be present at the risk of being called a bigot.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

I'm sure that some very small modifications will be made to give the allusion of being reasonable. It is part of the playbook.

- Propose something terrible to appease the TBA types
- Walk back about 0.01% of the terribleness because "listening to Albertans"
- Continue to pass a still-terrible piece of regressive legislation
- Boast about how they listened to Albertans

This is a stark reminder that our rights are fluid and should not be taken for granted. Abortions will be next, and it won't be in a sweeping, cataclysmic measure. It will be done bit by bit, in a manner similar to this. There will be a "protect the young pregnant girls!" appeal about youth abortions, which are extremely rare and uncommon, and very much already supervised, regulated, etc. Then a bunch of other little things will be slipped in too that will put restrictions on accessibly, funding, etc. that will make it more difficult for women and their physicians to consider the option.

This was basically "don't let kids change their names in class!!", but they have changed the focus to "don't let kids have life-altering surgeries" (which is rare and extreme) and look at all of the other regressive stuff that we've got along with it.

Take an extreme example that doesn't really happen, get everyone distracted by it, and then chip away at a bunch of other things in the process.

It's the conservative playbook. Look at what Florida is doing - which seems to be the place (after Russia) that pushes an extreme measure, then dials it back so it's not 100% terrible

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ech-defamation

So, calling someone out for being truly racist or homophobic will result in $35k fine, even if it's true. Now, will this survive challenge? Absolutely not, but much like the raptors in Jurassic Park, they keep testing the fence for the weak spots.

Truly just a terrible group of human beings, if I can even call them that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Please Cliff, look just a little deeper. Two commonly quoted names in these highly-touted publications on this topic - Laura Edwards Leaper and Erica Anderson - are both the main voices against gender affirmative care and always have been. They're not interested in the main goal - ensuring the care is provided as needed without excessively impeding the process and leading to harm. They're only interested in adding more barriers to receiving care. Laura has endorsed known conversion therapists in the past. Why do you think the NYT would go to her?

What about Marci Bowers, current president of WPATH?

“There are definitely people who are trying to keep out anyone who doesn’t absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming, and that there’s no room for dissent,” Bowers said. “I think that’s a mistake.”

Gender affirmation is an activist movement, not a medical protocol. The point of having assessments in the first place is to establish if there’s a medical basis for intervening. That assessment is based on the principal that a minor’s belief alone is insufficient to warrant intervention.

The Tavistock inquiry concluded that there is pressure in the field to affirm, even when that runs contrary to the medical judgement of experts. You don’t have to be an anti-trans conservative to recognize that’s a problem.

And here’s what Annelou deVries, President of the European Professional Association of Transgender Health (EPATH) has to say:

She said that while she worries about the growing number of children awaiting treatment, the graver sin is to move too fast when puberty blockers and hormones may not be appropriate.

“The existential ethical dilemma in transgender care is between on one hand the (child’s) right for self-determination,” de Vries said. “On the other hand, the do-not-harm principle of medical intervention. Aren’t we intervening medically in a developing body where we don’t know the results of those interventions?” In the United States, in particular, she said, “the transgender right or child’s right seems to be put forward more strongly.” De Vries helped write the section on adolescents in WPATH’s updated Standards of Care. She said she was gratified that language stressing the importance of rigorous patient assessments remained.

In interviews with Reuters, doctors and other staff at 18 gender clinics across the country described their processes for evaluating patients. None described anything like the months-long assessments de Vries and her colleagues adopted in their research.

These experts are not calling for barriers to be erected. They’re calling for the standards of 10 years ago to be maintained in the face of activist pressure to remove them.

The efforts of conservatives in North America to deny transgendered care has fuelled counter-activism aimed to lower the standards of assessment. As experts like Bowers and de Vries warn, both approaches put children at risk.

[mrkajz44]

I read most of that NYT article and this stood out to me:

Reading about transgender people online, Powell believed that the reason she didn’t feel comfortable in her body was that she was in the wrong body. Transitioning seemed like the obvious solution. The narrative she had heard and absorbed was that if you don’t transition, you’ll kill yourself.

A big takeaway I get from reading through is this person felt unsure of themselves in puberty, and could only find some answers online as opposed to in schools or from family members.

The opt-in sex education rule just furthers this issue. Had there been better education about what being trans means and how many people feel uncomfortable in their bodies (both trans and cis people) during puberty would have likely resulted in a different outcome.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As experts like Bowers and de Vries warn, both approaches put children at risk.

Good thing the UCP, the ones who unfortunately get a disproportionate amount of say in this matter, has such a nuanced and thoughtful take on this subject, eh?

[Azure]

Seems to me that proper sex education would go a long way towards helping children learn & understand how their body works, and perhaps remove some of the doubt that is often involved with gender issues.

My other issue is that how many kids are being influenced by social media and other places that are not serving their needs at all? We know that rates of depression, self harm, anxiety, suicide, etc are all going up like crazy, and we also know that social media is playing a big role in that regard. So yes, while not all kids grow up in a loving and supportive home where their parents will help them with these 'issues', but we also have to admit that many of these issues are being made worse by what is influencing kids to begin with, and IMO society is do nothing to deal with that issue, and instead is reacting to the outcome of the issue.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Good thing the UCP, the ones who unfortunately get a disproportionate amount of say in this matter, has such a nuanced and thoughtful take on this subject, eh?

I criticized the UCP earlier in the thread. But when the subject of thorough assessments and counselling for minors seeking medical intervention came up, I thought it important to mention that this is often no longer the case in North America, and many experts in the field are concerned about it.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I don't think he ever said they were going to run a candidate but rather they were going to buy up a huge amount of memberships which would allow them to sway the vote to a specific candidate.

Good point. I made a leap there. I'll be involved in signing up members so I'll have to keep my eyes open for the infiltrators.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I criticized the UCP earlier in the thread. But when the subject of thorough assessments and counselling for minors seeking medical intervention came up, I thought it important to mention that this is often no longer the case in North America, and many experts in the field are concerned about it.

Quote supporting this?

[timun]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I criticized the UCP earlier in the thread. But when the subject of thorough assessments and counselling for minors seeking medical intervention came up, I thought it important to mention that this is often no longer the case in North America, and many experts in the field are concerned about it.

Where are all these minors getting hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery in Alberta?